Previous ND Coaching Starts...

motkaboo

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Previous ND Coaching Starts...

Freeman 0-2 (1 ranked team + Marshall) ??

Kelly 1-3 (1 ranked team +purdue, mich, msu) 8-5
Davie 1-4 (4 ranked teams + purdue) 7-6
Holtz 1-4 (3 ranked teams + purdue & pitt) 5-6
Faust 1-2 (3 ranked teams) 5-6
 

savvyandsassier

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Yeah, I guess all this could be an overreaction, but this is a top five program. All those other teams were rebuilds from fired coaches. And true regime changes, that would come with major cultural groundwork laying....

But BK brought ND to the mountaintop. That's why we were a preseason top five/top ten team. Presumably that's why they felt they could splurge on someone so unqualified like MF, and he could ride the program's momentum for a couple seasons before he established himself in the role. Bottom line is this program is rock effin' solid, and the only reason the wheels are suddenly coming off the bus, one would think, is because our new coaching staff is not up to the job.
 

banmate6

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Yeah, I guess all this could be an overreaction, but this is a top five program. All those other teams were rebuilds from fired coaches. And true regime changes, that would come with major cultural groundwork laying....

But BK brought ND to the mountaintop. That's why we were a preseason top five/top ten team. Presumably that's why they felt they could splurge on someone so unqualified like MF, and he could ride the program's momentum for a couple seasons before he established himself in the role. Bottom line is this program is rock effin' solid, and the only reason the wheels are suddenly coming off the bus, one would think, is because our new coaching staff is not up to the job.



I'm with you.

This is all demoralizing as a sports fan and Irish rooter.

I was a grudging fan of CBK, acknowledging he evolved and brought ND back into prominence.

He may have bombed in big game moments, but overall got the team pretty much as far as possible given the limitations.

This staff clearly seems like a whole less than the sum of the parts...even considering a bleak QB situation.
 

d1042

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MF has to clean house and get guys he resonates with; not BK holdovers or castoffs!
 
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shooter1977

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Previous ND Coaching Starts...

Freeman 0-2 (1 ranked team + Marshall) ??

Kelly 1-3 (1 ranked team +purdue, mich, msu) 8-5
Davie 1-4 (4 ranked teams + purdue) 7-6
Holtz 1-4 (3 ranked teams + purdue & pitt) 5-6
Faust 1-2 (3 ranked teams) 5-6
Holtz opening game was against #2 Michigan. ND dominated the game, never punted, and got a TD taken away on a bad call late in the game. It was clear ND was completely transformed after the Faust years.

Kelly was using Nick Montana against Michigan, lost on Little Giants to Kirk Cousins at Michigan State, and then lost to Andrew Luck's Stanford team which finished #2.

Freeman's comp is unfortunately tracking Faust and Davie.
 
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88ND

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Freeman's comp is unfortunately tracking Faust and Davie.
Faust beat the #1 team in the country and played a ridiculously tough schedule.

Matter of fact I'd say Faust's easiest schedule was still much harder than BK's toughest schedule. At least on the eye test.
 
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Kelso86

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Freeman took over a program that was winning 10+ games the last 5 years. All those other coaches took over losing or mediocre programs, BIG difference.
"All those other coaches took over losing or mediocre programs, BIG difference."

Faust took over an ND team that played for the NC in '80 and then, after an opening game win in '81, was ranked #1
Davie took over an ND program on the heals of Holtz's final 2 years of steady football and had a steady group of talent
 

4-4-3

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Freeman took over a program that was winning 10+ games the last 5 years. All those other coaches took over losing or mediocre programs, BIG difference.
Actually, that's not totally correct.

There was NOTHING mediocre about the team Faust took over from Dan Devine after his 6 years of winning at almost a 77% clip. He won an NC in 77 and his 80 team barely lost to #1 Georgia on New Year's.

The roster was also stocked with future NFL talent, including Greg Bell and Tony Hunter.

Same is true of Davie. Holtz had gone 17-6 in the prior two years. That isn't MEDIOCRE either. It may not have equaled Holtz's 88-93 run, but it was still almost a 74% winning percentage. And the entire body of work that was inherited was Holtz's as well. DEFINITELY not mediocre.

Watch the 95 season highlights. It was a very good team. Four terrific running backs: Kinder, Farmer, Edwards and Denson. Watch them ALL rippping off huge chunks of yardage the likes of which we haven't come close to seeing this year.
 
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NDinNJ

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Freeman took over a program that was winning 10+ games the last 5 years. All those other coaches took over losing or mediocre programs, BIG difference.
Holtz in his first year had far more talent then Freeman has in his first year.
 

NDinNJ

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But BK brought ND to the mountaintop.
😂 If you want to call it that. Funniest thing I've heard since I've been on this forum. You must be a product of the participation trophy generation. 😂 lol🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
 

NDinNJ

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Wow. I woulda never thought that.

How old are you??
Apologize, I should clarify, I was referring to their teams. The team Holtz took over from Faust was far more talented than the team Freeman took over from Kelly.
 

4-4-3

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Yeah, I guess all this could be an overreaction, but this is a top five program. All those other teams were rebuilds from fired coaches. And true regime changes, that would come with major cultural groundwork laying....

But BK brought ND to the mountaintop. That's why we were a preseason top five/top ten team. Presumably that's why they felt they could splurge on someone so unqualified like MF, and he could ride the program's momentum for a couple seasons before he established himself in the role. Bottom line is this program is rock effin' solid, and the only reason the wheels are suddenly coming off the bus, one would think, is because our new coaching staff is not up to the job.
ND almost ALWAYS takes its foot OFF THE PEDAL. Either consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY.

They did it with Leahy (Brennan); Devine (Faust); and Holtz (Davie).

And now they've done it AGAIN.

If you do the math, it's clear that ND management can only take 10 to 15 years of ROBUST FOOTBALL SUCCESS before PARANOIA sets in, and they start thinking that people in corners are whispering that they're becoming a FOOTBALL FACTORY.

The only smart back-to-back hire ND has made since I started following them in the mid-50's was Parseghian and Devine.

For ND, those were either years of the RAREST PURE CLARITY . . . or they'd simply gone off their MEDS.
 
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savvyandsassier

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ND almost ALWAYS takes its foot OFF THE PEDAL. Either consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY.

They did it with Leahy (Brennan); Devine (Faust); and Holtz (Davie).

And now they've done it AGAIN.

If you do the math, it's clear that ND management can only take 10 to 15 years of ROBUST FOOTBALL SUCCESS before PARANOIA sets in, and they start thinking that people in corners are whispering that they're becoming a FOOTBALL FACTORY.

The only smart back-to-back hire ND has made since I started following them in the mid-50's was Parseghian and Devine.

For ND, those were either years of the RAREST PURE CLARITY . . . or they'd simply gone off their MEDS.
This is a complete vanity hire. This is Gerry Faust all over again. ND/Swarbrick/Jenkins fell in love with MF, which is understandable, he's very appealing.... and just couldn't let go of him. He was not hired because he was particularly qualified, and certainly was not the best that ND could get. That they possibly compounded it by making it a package deal with favorite son Tommy Rees as OC, just makes the whole thing all the sweeter.

And we see the results thus far....
 
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Patrirish

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This is a complete vanity hire. This is Gerry Faust all over again. ND/Swarbrick/Jenkins fell in love with MF, which is understandable, he's very appealing.... and just couldn't let go of him. He was not hired because he was particularly qualified, and certainly was not the best that ND could get. That they possibly compounded it by making it a package deal with favorite son Tommy Rees as OC, just makes the whole thing all the sweeter.

And we see the results thus far....
There’s an element of truth in your statement, but the overriding factor was that Kelly left ND with few if any viable choices/options.

Let’s not forget that a week before Kelly abandoned ND, he announced that he was staying as the Head Coach at ND.

Given the horrible and shameful iming that Kelly forced upon ND, tell us, realistically, who ND could have hired as the HC.

ND should have named MF interim HC.
If he performed well in 2022 he could have been elevated to HC in 2023.

And if he performed poorly, ND could have searched and found a qualified candidate with previous HC experience for 2023
 
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Patrirish

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ND almost ALWAYS takes its foot OFF THE PEDAL. Either consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY.

They did it with Leahy (Brennan); Devine (Faust); and Holtz (Davie).

And now they've done it AGAIN.

If you do the math, it's clear that ND management can only take 10 to 15 years of ROBUST FOOTBALL SUCCESS before PARANOIA sets in, and they start thinking that people in corners are whispering that they're becoming a FOOTBALL FACTORY.

The only smart back-to-back hire ND has made since I started following them in the mid-50's was Parseghian and Devine.

For ND, those were either years of the RAREST PURE CLARITY . . . or they'd simply gone off their MEDS.
Hiring Head Coaches has been ND’s Achilles heel.

it‘s difficult to understand how ND could make so many bad choices.

Brennan, Kuharich, Devore, Faust, Davie, Willingham, Weiss*

I would “guess” and it’s only a guess, that the AD, VP and President caucus with the ultimate decision with the President, unless he cedes it to the VP or AD.

Historically I don’t understand how you can make so many bad decisions and worse yet, how do you not learn from your bad decisions ?

I’ll be forever puzzled !
 
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4-4-3

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Hiring Head Coaches has been ND’s Achilles heel.

it‘s difficult to understand how ND could make so many bad choices.

Brennan, Kuharich, Devore, Faust, Davie, Willingham, Weiss*

I would “guess” and it’s only a guess, that the AD, VP and President caucus with the ultimate decision with the President, unless he cedes it to the VP or AD.

Historically I don’t understand how you can make so many bad decisions and worse yet, how do you not learn from your bad decisions ?

I’ll be forever puzzled !
There's, of course, a common thread to all of this, though, like you say, it's DIFFICULT to pinpoint.

But I'd venture that it's rooted in the fact that ND's relationship to its football team has always been CONDITIONAL. Whereas in places like Bama, LSU, OSU, etc. it's UNCONDITIONAL AND ALL IN, even during more fallow periods.

At most other universities, there is no MATERIAL GAP between the educational mission and the sporting missiion. At ND, sports are clearly SUBORDINATE as a matter of PRINCIPLE. Which makes it easier to grow complacent when they appear to be SUCCEEDING ON AUTOPILOT.

I get the feeling ND just doesn't WANT to INTERVENE. Doesn't want to be SEEN as being TOO CONCERNED.

Only when the S truly HTF does ND wake up and go into DAMAGE CONTROL. Which as one poster put it, is always a LITTLE TOO LATE.

But that may change if ND intends to KEEP PACE. The more the game becomes MONETIZED, the quicker college coaches will GET THE HOOK.

Still, my fear with Freeman -- assuming he screws up -- is that ND will give him more than ONE CHANCE to turn HALF A LOAF into a FULL ONE.

They did that with both Faust and Davie, and pretty soon, A MISERABLE FIVE YEARS HAD PASSED.
 

4-4-3

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This is a complete vanity hire. This is Gerry Faust all over again. ND/Swarbrick/Jenkins fell in love with MF, which is understandable, he's very appealing.... and just couldn't let go of him. He was not hired because he was particularly qualified, and certainly was not the best that ND could get. That they possibly compounded it by making it a package deal with favorite son Tommy Rees as OC, just makes the whole thing all the sweeter.

And we see the results thus far....
"Vanity hire" is a good way of putting it.

While Freeman didn't pass the EXPERIENCE test, he apparently ACED the PLAUSIBILITY test. As in PLAUSIBLE OPTICS.

Hey, maybe he can actually GENERAL his own "band of brothers." Or at least learn to. But it's a very big IF that ND didn't have to TRUCK WITH. And if he CAN'T or isn't a QUICK LEARNER, ND will make the STEEPER LATER payment, wiping out the discounted savings it bet on achieving by not paying more UPFRONT.
 

88ND

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Watch the 95 season highlights. It was a very good team. Four terrific running backs: Kinder, Farmer, Edwards and Denson. Watch them ALL rippping off huge chunks of yardage the likes of which we haven't come close to seeing this year.
Ha...

And in big games haven't seen since Holtz

This offense is stale and lacks any identity.

Rees does it because BK did it. BK does it because everyone else does it.

No identity whatsoever.

Holtz was a dufferent animal.
He was unique in that he'd run power football from the I, the T, the Wishbone, between the tackles but then run the option at the perfect time.
Could throw it on occasion and very well..or rather

I can still hear Dan Deirdorf with Al Michael and Frank Gifford talking about the Oline and he'd say...they MOVE people...

Our line doesn't move anyone.
It's pathetic honestly.

The point is Holtz teams were a running team. They could even say it's going right here and the D still couldn't stop it.

Rees offense is Mickey Mouse.
It's a Punch and Judy show
 
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BGI User 1596

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Ha...

And in big games haven't seen since Holtz

This offense is stale and lacks any identity.

Rees does it because BK did it. BK does it because everyone else does it.

No identity whatsoever.

Holtz was a dufferent animal.
He was unique in that he'd run power football from the I, the T, the Wishbone, between the tackles but then run the option at the perfect time.
Could throw it on occasion and very well..or rather

I can still hear Dan Deirdorf with Al Michael and Frank Gifford talking about the Oline and he'd say...they MOVE people...

Our line doesn't move anyone.
It's pathetic honestly.

The point is Holtz teams were a running team. They could even say it's going right here and the D still couldn't stop it.

Rees offense is Mickey Mouse.
It's a Punch and Judy show
It has more Judy than Punch!
 

banmate6

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Ha...

And in big games haven't seen since Holtz

This offense is stale and lacks any identity.

Rees does it because BK did it. BK does it because everyone else does it.

No identity whatsoever.

Holtz was a dufferent animal.
He was unique in that he'd run power football from the I, the T, the Wishbone, between the tackles but then run the option at the perfect time.
Could throw it on occasion and very well..or rather

I can still hear Dan Deirdorf with Al Michael and Frank Gifford talking about the Oline and he'd say...they MOVE people...

Our line doesn't move anyone.
It's pathetic honestly.

The point is Holtz teams were a running team. They could even say it's going right here and the D still couldn't stop it.

Rees offense is Mickey Mouse.
It's a Punch and Judy show
Great post!

This is the identity I miss.

I dare say Georgia last season had a lot of this power identity. Adapted to change, but yet smash mouth at its core.

Big lines that dominate. Geez. You’d think ND can have at least that consistently.
 
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HarlemIrish

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Freeman took over a program that was winning 10+ games the last 5 years. All those other coaches took over losing or mediocre programs, BIG difference.
Excellent point with the exception of Faust. He took over from Devine.
 

tkirish

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Regardless of what opinions are , good or bad. I will say MF is clearly going through growing pains. Will he be a successful hire ? Maybe, maybe not. Just have to see how things go
 
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tkirish

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One observation can also be made. MF took over a program that was winning at a very good clip over the last five years. From a pedestrian or casual point of view, one would assume the ball would just keep on rolling. Without any knowledge of ND football, that would be the logical thought process. However, when you start to look at the transition more deeply, you would see the signs were there for turbulence ahead. One thing BK had in his favor last year was a veteran QB transferring to ND. I don't believe ND would have won as many games if Coan was not he QB. That is only my opinion, nothing more. Last year's team had more continuity on offense than it does this year. Let us not forget , there were more playmakers on offense as well. Avery Davis and Kyren Williams, were the 2 that stood out the most. The offensive line had issues but they were just good enough.

Fast forward to now. You have a brand new first time head coach. He has brought in a new staff minus one or two. Until the end of last game, you had a true sophomore QB making his first ever start. The offensive line has a few new starters. Your veteran receiver went down (DAVIS) before the season started. The running backs are first time starters as well. There are a lot of "firsts' on the offensive side of the ball. I think losing to OSU was one thing, losing to Marshall was another. But the signs were there that this might not quite be as good a team as the last five years. With all that said, let's hope they can end up with a decent season, 8-4 or 7-5 at worst. MF is the head coach. It his job, like it or not, to figure it out. Hopefully he can start with a win this week against Cal. Go Irish!!
 
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IrishBeer

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Previous ND Coaching Starts...

Freeman 0-2 (1 ranked team + Marshall) ??

Kelly 1-3 (1 ranked team +purdue, mich, msu) 8-5
Davie 1-4 (4 ranked teams + purdue) 7-6
Holtz 1-4 (3 ranked teams + purdue & pitt) 5-6
Faust 1-2 (3 ranked teams) 5-6
How good were those teams when said coaches took over?
 

IrishBeer

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If Stoops, Fickell or Cambell turn Nebraska around, we will feel even dumber for this MF hire.
 

savvyandsassier

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One observation can also be made. MF took over a program that was winning at a very good clip over the last five years. From a pedestrian or casual point of view, one would assume the ball would just keep on rolling. Without any knowledge of ND football, that would be the logical thought process. However, when you start to look at the transition more deeply, you would see the signs were there for turbulence ahead. One thing BK had in his favor last year was a veteran QB transferring to ND. I don't believe ND would have won as many games if Coan was not he QB. That is only my opinion, nothing more. Last year's team had more continuity on offense than it does this year. Let us not forget , there were more playmakers on offense as well. Avery Davis and Kyren Williams, were the 2 that stood out the most. The offensive line had issues but they were just good enough.

Fast forward to now. You have a brand new first time head coach. He has brought in a new staff minus one or two. Until the end of last game, you had a true sophomore QB making his first ever start. The offensive line has a few new starters. Your veteran receiver went down (DAVIS) before the season started. The running backs are first time starters as well. There are a lot of "firsts' on the offensive side of the ball. I think losing to OSU was one thing, losing to Marshall was another. But the signs were there that this might not quite be as good a team as the last five years. With all that said, let's hope they can end up with a decent season, 8-4 or 7-5 at worst. MF is the head coach. It his job, like it or not, to figure it out. Hopefully he can start with a win this week against Cal. Go Irish!!
You're not going to quit, are ya? You're determined to blame this on BK. No matter how obliquely or backhandedly you have to get about it. I don't even know what to say, characterizing you as 'pathological', or words to that effect, sounds cliche at this point. 'Pathetic' would definitely still work, though....

But It's not going to matter. If this year ends up another '07, and we go let's say 4-8..... NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE is going waste their time on the mental gymnastics required to try to pin it on BK somehow. I don't know, maybe Bryan Driskell would. But everyone else is going to transfer their bloodlust onto MF himself. And Tommy Rees, where it would it belong. And the absolute and utter humiliation of hater fans like yourself will be complete. Like beyond your wildest nightmares. In fact the only way to escape that humiliation would be turn your guns onto MF, which is what everyone will be doing if it gets to that point, you can be sure. And which I would say seems entirely possible. This season so far screams of another '07 when we went 3-9.

So you better hope we beat Cal this week and that some degree of normalcy returns, and we can maybe squeak out a 7-5 record. Which would still be complete shit. But you'd probably have just enough to work with to keep your little haters' narratives going....
 

tkirish

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Seriously, I am not blaming BK for anything. Everything I stated was a fact. As I also stated it is up to MF to figure it out.
 

4-4-3

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One observation can also be made. MF took over a program that was winning at a very good clip over the last five years. From a pedestrian or casual point of view, one would assume the ball would just keep on rolling. Without any knowledge of ND football, that would be the logical thought process. However, when you start to look at the transition more deeply, you would see the signs were there for turbulence ahead. One thing BK had in his favor last year was a veteran QB transferring to ND. I don't believe ND would have won as many games if Coan was not he QB. That is only my opinion, nothing more. Last year's team had more continuity on offense than it does this year. Let us not forget , there were more playmakers on offense as well. Avery Davis and Kyren Williams, were the 2 that stood out the most. The offensive line had issues but they were just good enough.

Fast forward to now. You have a brand new first time head coach. He has brought in a new staff minus one or two. Until the end of last game, you had a true sophomore QB making his first ever start. The offensive line has a few new starters. Your veteran receiver went down (DAVIS) before the season started. The running backs are first time starters as well. There are a lot of "firsts' on the offensive side of the ball. I think losing to OSU was one thing, losing to Marshall was another. But the signs were there that this might not quite be as good a team as the last five years. With all that said, let's hope they can end up with a decent season, 8-4 or 7-5 at worst. MF is the head coach. It his job, like it or not, to figure it out. Hopefully he can start with a win this week against Cal. Go Irish!!
Good post.

I also saw a lot of potential DROP-OFFS stemming from the loss of KEY PERSONNEL. To me, Coan and Williams were absolute DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Coan led three last minute comebacks that I don't think Buchner could have matched -- yes, speculation, but there's supporting data -- while Williams was the best YAC runner I've ever seen at ND. He was nothing less than an ACROBAT at gaining yardage that no one imagined was there.

Davis was also a big loss.

As for team's final record, Swarbrick himself in an interview alluded to 8-4 as a possibility, though he did it OBLIQUELY.

And don't forget Kelly would have faced the same challenges which makes it even more interesting that he left.
 
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88ND

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Fast forward to now. You have a brand new first time head coach. He has brought in a new staff minus one or two.
And that one or two is the problem.

The other hires are doing fine.

The ones retained(TR) or brought back(HH) are the problem.

They weren't any good before and they suck even more now.
 
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savvyandsassier

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Seriously, I am not blaming BK for anything. Everything I stated was a fact. As I also stated it is up to MF to figure it out.
Alright, man. Have it your damn way. I think it's mainly that you just suck at being manipulative and insinuating.

In the end it won't matter, for the reasons I've already mentioned. If worst comes to worst....