I see rivals updated their rankings and bumped Hamilton quite a bit. Still have to question how rivals staff can have our other safety recruit, Litchfield Ajavon, above Hamilton. Either way looks like we are getting 2 really good players.
Kyle Hamilton Senior Film
- Thread starter IrishInOntario
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Expect his ranking to rocket up again after the all star games (if he shows out), when Rivals does its final update.
Not that it matters, the kid is a complete stud regardless of what his individual or composite rating says.
Clausen was not a spread QB by any measure. Besides this not being a good situation for him to come back, I really doubt BK would have had much interest in having him for just one year. And before anyone reflexively balks at that idea, remember, BK was a different coach back then. He was intent on implementing his offensive system in year one no matter the personnel. That meant converting a pro-style QB like Crist into a hurry-up spread QB. Now, some people might say he would have just tried to convert Clausen as well had he come back. Clausen couldn't run - at all. At least Crist had running ability. So BK had a QB with running ability but no spread experience in Crist and he ended up also having a QB with no running ability but spread experience in Rees. Those were less-than-ideal but still two solid choices to work with. I really don't think he would have wanted to try to work with a QB with no running ability at all and no spread experience just for one year and BK's first year at that.
Kyle's going ti be really big and strong when Balis gets ahold of him. He has the kind of frame that stength coaches drool over. He's about 195lbs right now. Don't be shocked if he's 215lbs by time he's a sophomore and completely carved up.
Charlie Weis ran a spread offense as well. It's simply a matter of alignment. If Tommy Rees could run a spread, with his arm talent, Jimmy would have been just fine, with a far superior, more accurate, arm.
Weis considered his offense a pro-style offense. The only time he tried the spread at ND was for one game with Demetrius Jones at QB against Ga. Tech and he quickly abandoned that afterward. And saying that if Tommy Rees could run a spread with his arm talent so could JC is ignoring the most important point - Tommy Rees was a spread QB. He ran the spread throughout high school. He didn't need to be taught the spread. JC would have needed to be taught and he wouldn't have had any legs to bail him out as he was learning.
Besides, my point wasn't whether or not JC could have learned a spread offense. Given enough time I'm sure he could have. My point was that I doubt BK would have had much interest in trying to convert a non-spread QB with no running ability into a spread QB for just one year. You are trying to make it sound as if it would have been easy. It wouldn't have been.
Brian
While there certainly are differences between the offense Weis ran and the one Kelly ran at ND, both were spread offenses. Calling your offense "Pro Style" doesn't differentiate it from being a spread offense. Jimmy Clausen was running 2x2, single back alignments out of shotgun (not a necessity in a spread) and 2x3 empty sets with "spread" route concepts, just as routinely under Weis as any of Kelly's quarterbacks have. He did run SOME 3 and 5 step drop game, particularly early in his career when his offensive line was a dumpster fire but it was still out of spread sets for the most part. When Weis started Demetrious Jones for a half is when he tried to implement the "zone-read" (in its infancy) as the foundation of the ND run game, with a run first quarterback.
If you think a "spread quarterback" means that the guy has to be able to run zone-read, or run from the quarterback position, that's not the case. Kelly runs pro route concepts out of his spread looks. He did it with Tony Pike at Cincinnati as well, and that guy was a statue (but he could chuck it). Will Grier ran a spread offense at West Virginia this year and he's nowhere near a runner. USC ran a spread offense all year. Their kid isn't what some might call a "spread quarterback"... I guess I'm just confused about what made Jimmy "not a spread" quarterback?... I watched him throw for more than 3700 yards for 28 TD's vs 4 INT's his junior year, in an offense that was spread sideline-to-sideline on nearly every snap.
While there certainly are differences between the offense Weis ran and the one Kelly ran at ND, both were spread offenses. Calling your offense "Pro Style" doesn't differentiate it from being a spread offense. Jimmy Clausen was running 2x2, single back alignments out of shotgun (not a necessity in a spread) and 2x3 empty sets with "spread" route concepts, just as routinely under Weis as any of Kelly's quarterbacks have. He did run SOME 3 and 5 step drop game, particularly early in his career when his offensive line was a dumpster fire but it was still out of spread sets for the most part. When Weis started Demetrious Jones for a half is when he tried to implement the "zone-read" (in its infancy) as the foundation of the ND run game, with a run first quarterback.
If you think a "spread quarterback" means that the guy has to be able to run zone-read, or run from the quarterback position, that's not the case. Kelly runs pro route concepts out of his spread looks. He did it with Tony Pike at Cincinnati as well, and that guy was a statue (but he could chuck it). Will Grier ran a spread offense at West Virginia this year and he's nowhere near a runner. USC ran a spread offense all year. Their kid isn't what some might call a "spread quarterback"... I guess I'm just confused about what made Jimmy "not a spread" quarterback?... I watched him throw for more than 3700 yards for 28 TD's vs 4 INT's his junior year, in an offense that was spread sideline-to-sideline on nearly every snap.
I guess you need to take up the terminology problem with Weis and the many other coaches and experts who have used the terms "pro style" and "spread" to mean different things. And sure, a pro style coach might also run plays with spread concepts, and a spread coach might also run plays with pro style concepts, but most offenses are primarily one or the other and this was especially true 10+ years ago when the spread was first becoming more popular but was still considered very different from conventional pro style offenses.
Also, it's clear from your response that you misunderstood what I was saying. Nowhere did I say that a spread QB had to also be a running QB. In fact, I think I made it clear that Tommy Rees was a spread QB coming into ND. Tommy ran about as well as JC. Neither one could run a lick and yet, clearly, TR was a spread QB because he came from a spread system. I even said that if you gave JC enough time he likely could have run a spread offense just fine. The problem was he only had 1 year of eligibility left.
Do you remember BK's first year at ND? He was determined to run the same spread up-tempo offense that he ran in Cinci. When he was asked about Dayne Crist's progress learning his system for the first time he said there was a learning curve but he was optimistic because DC was a good enough athlete to take off and run if the called play wasn't there. He wouldn't have had that luxury with JC while JC was learning.
If you are hung up on the term "spread" being a problem for JC, fine. How about the term "new," as in BK would have had to teach JC a new offense. Back then BK wanted someone who was either familiar with the type of offense he was running or someone who was athletic enough to bail and run when a play didn't work out as expected. JC was neither of those and I don't think BK would have been too excited to enter his first season at ND with a QB that was neither.
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Don't get too crazy with 4 to 5 star perceived elite prospects. Some of you were high on a lot of those kind of kids i.e. Derek Allen with similar tangibles and he did not do anything but play on the scout team.
I'm still high on Derrik Allen. Just because he didn't play as a freshman doesn't mean isn't going to be a good football player.
Harison Smith was one of the worst safeties I've ever seen at Notre Dame, early in his career. He couldn't cover air... He shouldn't have been playing accept for the fact that Notre Dame had little talent or depth back there... By his senior season he was a 1st round pick and is now one of the 5 best safeties in the world.
Derrik Allen has the size and athletic ability you are looking for. He just needs to continue to further refine his game. I've argued that his best long term fit might be at rover.
Houston Griffith was horrible as a freshman and Phil Jurkovec didn't play a meaningful snap. Does that mean that neither of those top 100 players are a big part of Notre Dame's future?... Are they Trevor Lawrence / Xavier Thomas / Justyn Ross freak shows? Not likely. But I'm still high on their upside down the road.
I think Kyle Hamilton has all the makings of a stud. Is there a chance that 4 years from now we're going to call him a bust? Sure. But I wouldn't bet on it. The same way I'm not betting on Derrik Allen being a bad player just because he redshirted. A freshman season does not make a career.
I have a hard time distinguishing talent from watching highlight films. The level of talent varies so greatly in HS from one league to the next, the size of the player doesn't scale well on film, and every player's highlight film looks exceptional to me. I have a lot of respect and admiration for those who can get an idea of how well talent will translate to the next level simply by watching highlights.
There has been a lot of talk regarding Kyle Hamilton being a 5 star talent, but his composite ranking hasn't even broken the top 100 (he's right on the border). He's one of the best prospects in this class but the scouts/evaluators clearly see some issues that are preventing him from being a real top 25/five star/elite rated talent by consensus. Is it really just because he's thin/lanky ?
I remember last year the fan base really started to get bullish on Phil Jerko as a five star talent even though he too was rated more towards the back end of the top 100 by consensus.
There has been a lot of talk regarding Kyle Hamilton being a 5 star talent, but his composite ranking hasn't even broken the top 100 (he's right on the border). He's one of the best prospects in this class but the scouts/evaluators clearly see some issues that are preventing him from being a real top 25/five star/elite rated talent by consensus. Is it really just because he's thin/lanky ?
I remember last year the fan base really started to get bullish on Phil Jerko as a five star talent even though he too was rated more towards the back end of the top 100 by consensus.
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Politics. None of the services had Hamilton ranked high because he didn't participate I some of their sponsored camps as a freshman and sophomore. For many, the first time they were really seeing him was as a junior. Fast forward a year later and he has filled out quite a bit and he dominated the highest level of football in Georgia.
247 increasingly is by "go to" for rankings because they are much more proactive in eating their own crow when they've gotten something wrong and they're not afraid to make huge rating adjustments, accordingly, as guys prove themselves. 247 has moved Kyle from a guy they had ranked at one point in the 500's, to #22 overall, a 5 star when the last update occurs.
Rivals, on the other hand, continues to fall behind. They are much less willing adjust the ratings of kids they were wrong about early in the cycle. They'll move kids up, but they don't tend to make huge leaps. They said that Kyle Hamilton will be getting a a boost in his current ranking, but no matter how much he dominated this season and among his peers in San Antonio, Rivals will only give him a marginal push. That's just the way they do things, sadly. They're also much more political. Their 5 Stsr Challenge is secondary to The Opening, and they know it. In order to defend their event they tend to give favourable ratings to the guys who attend their event and they don't often show the same love for guys who skip their event and showcase their skills at The Opening regionals and finals instead. Expect Hamilton to be a member of the new Rivals 100 released tomorrow, but he'll inevitably be ranked lower than he should be.
I think the services were about right with Jurkovec. He's a top 100 type, big upside guy, but he's nowhere near a refined as let's say Trevor Lawrence. To have Jurkovec ranked Lawrencen's neighborhood would have been flat wrong... Still an excellent prospect though.
Lawrence is the best QB prospect out of high school, possibly all time, as a pro style QB. Sure wish CFB had a 1 and done rule.
Yep, as I expected he would. Rivals has him #75 and 247 had him #22.
I have to start folkowfol 247 more closely. I didn't the realize the amount of politics involved with Rivals
Nice call!
It looks like Quinn Carroll and Kyle Hamilton are the only members of the new Rivals 100. Did you notice any other big climbers/droppers in the update?
Two quick things on this:
Zeke Correll falling out of the top 100 is plain silly. He had a terrific Senior Year & at the UA All American preactices & game all the coaches raved about how much he dominated, even against 5 Star DL.
There are not 74 better players in this class than Hamilton. There are not that many Safties better than him either.
Multiple sites have him a top 25 (5 Star) plater, but two sites have him between 75-100, which drops his overall composite. Both those sites (as mentioned earlier by IIO) have a hard time moving him up because he didn’t attend their camps. There is a Safety who attended the 5 Star Challenge & did just okay, who Rivals has higher than Hamilton. And that’s after Kyle was named to the Opening All Star team (an event Rivals was barred from).
Kyle is elite.
I have no problem with Zeke Correll being ranked outside of the top 100. He has the perfect disposition and skill set you want in a center, but he's small. At 6'3, about 275lbs, he's probably another guy that caps out in that 295lb range (hopefully not)... That's just not good enough in modern football when you get to the playoffs and the team lines up 6'5, 340lb Dexter Lawrence and 6'4, 315lb Christian Wilkins across from you... It's a recipe for running nowhere.
I've heard a number of people talk about how Correll reminds them of Quenton Nelson... I think that's a ridiculous comparison. He may have a similar disposition (so did Trevor Ruhland in high school), but what people are missing is that Nelson had the body to back it up. Nelson is 6'5, 325lbs, with 34 3/4 inch arms. He's a complete specimen. Correll will never be near that big... Like it, or not, that matters.
That's why Evan Neal, a 6'7, 330lb OL out of IMG is ranked as a 5 star and why Zeke Correll, who is the better technician at this point, but is only 6'3, 275lbs, dropped out of the top 100.
Both Clemson and Alabama had centers that were 305+lbs in the National Chmapionship Game. I sincerely hope Correll can get there at his height and not be sloppy. I feel the same about Robert Hainsey. He's small for a tackle at the upper echelon of college football. At 6'4, I sincerely hope he can hold 300lbs and makes the move to center next year. His arms are too short and he doesn't have the girth to anchor on the edge against bigtime pass rushers.
I'd be willing to bet that Zeke is no less than a 2nd round NFL guy in a few years. One of my favorite committs.
I hope you're right! I'll be sure to give you props if he is!.. I don't see it, but I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.
Let’s just say he does make 295 as you suggested.
I would take a mobile, technique-solid, mean streak, 295er over most 305ers at Center.
Center is the position I want an intelligent leader. I’ll take a Jeff Saturday over a huge bruiser at that position.
Loved Jeff Saturday, but college football continues to evolve quickly. Teams have some mobile monsters inside that rarely existed even 20 years ago... Against the elite teams you have to be big, strong and fast. Correll could wind up being the ultimate technician who overcomes his lack of measurables, that would be great... But by any objective measure 6'3, 270-275lbs doesn't jump off the page as potentially dominant when you have Christian Wilkins lined up across from you.
15-20 years ago 300lbs was the key number. Anything 6'3 and above was considered ideal for interior players... We're seeing that change among elite teams. If you're short, you better be a 320+lb road grader to start at guard on a top tier SEC team. Center is the last position where you can still make a living in that 300lb range, unless you're long (height and reach) and very, very athletic. You're not going to find many starting OL on modern championship football teams under 300lbs. The guys lining up across from them are just too big and too long.
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Just a quick note on Hamilton per the other rankings:
He is now a 5 Star
#1 Safety in the country
#15 Nationally
The local & regional guys on Rivals said after the last Rivals rankings he was their #1 Safety & tip 20 nationally & a 5 Star. Unfortunately the national guys are not on board, but it’s not surprising because after the Opening Finals (an event Rivals was not allowed at), they kept him a 3 Star despite being named to the dream team (top Safety). But the local Rivals’ guys have him an elite 5 Star.
He is now a 5 Star
#1 Safety in the country
#15 Nationally
The local & regional guys on Rivals said after the last Rivals rankings he was their #1 Safety & tip 20 nationally & a 5 Star. Unfortunately the national guys are not on board, but it’s not surprising because after the Opening Finals (an event Rivals was not allowed at), they kept him a 3 Star despite being named to the dream team (top Safety). But the local Rivals’ guys have him an elite 5 Star.
It's not a concern. 247 did what's right and ranked him as he should be. One of the top 15 players nationally. Rivals saved face and ranked him inside the top 100.
It's a shame he won't be an early enrolee because I have a feeling ND might see a Devin Studstill transfer sometime between now and the start of fall camp. I would have liked Hamilton to have an extra 5 months of lifting and spring ball so that he could jump right into the safety rotation or win the nickel position.
Regardless, we're lucky to have him and I think he'll be a great fit in South Bend. I hope he's really serious about his speed and strength training in the months leading up to him arriving in South Bend.
For the people who care about 5 Stars per class, ND could easily have two if they wanted. Kariloftis is still a 5 Star despite all the big boys passing on him. ND moved away from early. They are recruiting his younger brother though
Going back a year, he started doing team camp visits, which is actually WAY more important than anything. In HS he just runs over kids half his size. At National camps he really doesn’t “compete for real” because it’s a lot of 7on7 & shorts.
When they go to a camp at a school, they actually workout for the coaches & compete against kids they will be playing in college. So it’s the best way to see their actual skill set.
It was widely reported that at the ND visit he was so bad he couldn’t even compete & lost all his confidence, which then carried over to multiple other team camps. That’s why ND, OSU, the SEC schools, all backs way off. He then went back to HS & dominated bad competition in West Laffeyette, and Purdue (being two minutes away) gobbled him up & made him feel at home. Even after getting high ratings by services the major programs weren’t recruiting him. They feel that just being bigger & stronger than 240 OL in HS & running them over, with limited technique, won’t translate at the next level. Evidently the college level kids at the team camps buried him repeatedly.
I can't help but think shying away was a giant mistake. I guess we'll know in a couple years.
Yet we took a kid who played against the worst competition I’ve ever seen because he’s local, at a less important position to boot. Passing on a 5 star local defensive end is a horrible mistake and just plain lazy. If he doesn’t pan out, so what. We’ve took way lesser defensive ends over the years.
I'm giving you my comparison. Marshal Yanda 6'3" 305. Good Iowa Hawkeye, multiple pro bows, maybe hall of fame. We'll have a nice internet beer on how Zeke winds up. Not that either will remember this.
Why don't we recruit more Iowa bred linemen.
Kiser is the exact opposite of Karlifitis. Coaches saw him play and we're very impressed from what I hear. Know what you're saying though.
No problem.
And to be clear, that’s not my opinion, I have no idea how good he is or what actually happened at the camps. That’s just what was widely reported to be the case.
Kiser is now the 191 nationally ranked player.
Seriously. He is the 5th highest ranked ND player in the class.
Very happy to have Kyle Hamilton and happy to see his progress throughout the recruiting cycle, but lets keep it 100. He's still a composite #60 player overall. ND STILL hasn't signed composite 5 star since Jaylon Smith.
247 probably has the best recruiting analysis in the business and IIOs analysis is always respected so that's always a plus but we can't just ignore the other three services who aren't as high on him either. ALL the data matters IMO.
247 probably has the best recruiting analysis in the business and IIOs analysis is always respected so that's always a plus but we can't just ignore the other three services who aren't as high on him either. ALL the data matters IMO.
