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Jim Cheney goes all Elko on Georgia

twalsh

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Jan 7, 2008
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Got an offer from Tennessee, Kirby matched the offer, all is good, Tennessee raises the original offer, see yah!
 
Most likely going to promote from within. Current co-offensive coordinator James Coley.
The UGA concern floating around is that Cheney will take OL Coach Pittman with him to Tennessee. Pittman is an ace recruiter and that means everything to Kirby Smart.
 
Got an offer from Tennessee, Kirby matched the offer, all is good, Tennessee raises the original offer, see yah!

Now the spin machine says Smart told Cheney to explore other options...
 
GA should d o what ND did and find someone better with ethics.
This is such a bitcc made response. He got a better offer by like 20%... People need to get over the fact that he took the offer and did what is best for his family. Coaches are mercenaries do not understand why people refuse to accept this.
 
This is such a bitcc made response. He got a better offer by like 20%... People need to get over the fact that he took the offer and did what is best for his family. Coaches are mercenaries do not understand why people refuse to accept this.
He is a dbag and Lea is a better DC and safety play is much improved!
 
This is such a bitcc made response. He got a better offer by like 20%... People need to get over the fact that he took the offer and did what is best for his family. Coaches are mercenaries do not understand why people refuse to accept this.

I think all agents and coaches in this profession know how this is going to go. That said.. if he gave his word to Smart that "if you match Tenn offer, we're good and I'm staying" then he should stick with his word at least for another season. You can only hold your current coach hostage for so long. Good riddance at that point. Kind of a dick move.
 
It's almost as if people work to make money or something.

If only a lot of you would hold yourselves to the same standards you hold others.
 
I think all agents and coaches in this profession know how this is going to go. That said.. if he gave his word to Smart that "if you match Tenn offer, we're good and I'm staying" then he should stick with his word at least for another season. You can only hold your current coach hostage for so long. Good riddance at that point. Kind of a dick move.
I’m yours if you match doesn’t necessarily have a time stamp on it. If Georgia was given the opportunity to match the last offer and chose not to, then that’s their call to make. Why demonize the coach. Of course I wanted to rip Elko a new one when he lied, used and betrayed us. Fan Emotion does tend to override logic.
 
I think all agents and coaches in this profession know how this is going to go. That said.. if he gave his word to Smart that "if you match Tenn offer, we're good and I'm staying" then he should stick with his word at least for another season. You can only hold your current coach hostage for so long. Good riddance at that point. Kind of a dick move.
1. How did he hold Smart hostage? It the offer and acceptance was done in less then 48 hours.

2. There is a difference between saying "This is the offer I got from team X as a courtesy I am going to give you a chance to counter it" and saying "I will stay here for X"... Nothing suggests he told Smart I will stay here for X.

Its a business, an HC will fire an OC all the time to safe himself. Never criticize someone for trying to get their stacks while they can.
 
1. How did he hold Smart hostage? It the offer and acceptance was done in less then 48 hours.

2. There is a difference between saying "This is the offer I got from team X as a courtesy I am going to give you a chance to counter it" and saying "I will stay here for X"... Nothing suggests he told Smart I will stay here for X.

Its a business, an HC will fire an OC all the time to safe himself. Never criticize someone for trying to get their stacks while they can.
I THINK IT'S FAIR TO CRITICIZE HOW THEY GO ABOUT IT. I THOUGHT ELKO WAS BEREFT OF INTEGRITY IN THE WAY HE HANDLED THINGS.
 
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I THINK IT'S FAIR TO CRITICIZE HOW THEY GO ABOUT IT. I THOUGHT ELKO WAS BEREFT OF INTEGRITY IN THE WAY HE HANDLED THINGS.
Why? He says "ND A&M is offering this do yall have a counter?" ND counters with a raise, he says thanks A&M but I am good here and A&M moves on to Aranda. Elko wasn't out there trying to take interview or find other offers to leverage ND further in the mean time. Two weeks later after striking out with Aranda A&M comes back and offers Elko 20% + over what ND offered him. He is just suppose to say no? Elko has a family, a 20% raise is a big deal, he gave ND the option again to match and ND passed, which they definitely have the right to do. What lacks integrity about that? Loyalty is overrated in business when you are talking about employees to their employer. Your employer will send you to the curb when it is time and you wont get notice. Elko has a right to get his stacks, look out for his family and take care of himself. Where hurt ND in the process or misrepresent to ND anything about the process?
 
Why? He says "ND A&M is offering this do yall have a counter?" ND counters with a raise, he says thanks A&M but I am good here and A&M moves on to Aranda. Elko wasn't out there trying to take interview or find other offers to leverage ND further in the mean time. Two weeks later after striking out with Aranda A&M comes back and offers Elko 20% + over what ND offered him. He is just suppose to say no? Elko has a family, a 20% raise is a big deal, he gave ND the option again to match and ND passed, which they definitely have the right to do. What lacks integrity about that? Loyalty is overrated in business when you are talking about employees to their employer. Your employer will send you to the curb when it is time and you wont get notice. Elko has a right to get his stacks, look out for his family and take care of himself. Where hurt ND in the process or misrepresent to ND anything about the process?
we'll agree to disagree. i was raised to believe a mans word has value. ND gave him what he asked for and he agreed. end of story for me. your word is good or its not.
 
we'll agree to disagree. i was raised to believe a mans word has value. ND gave him what he asked for and he agreed. end of story for me. your word is good or its not.
So he has to stay at ND indefinitely? The answer is obviously no. Yall act like Elko lied to people, he got a better deal. ND had already given him their max offer and that was that.
 
So he has to stay at ND indefinitely? The answer is obviously no. Yall act like Elko lied to people, he got a better deal. ND had already given him their max offer and that was that.

The honesty factor depends on the spin. If he told ND he'd resign for the new K and then continued to receive offers then he wasn't honest. But who knows? Everyone BS's about their intentions after the fact.
 
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So he has to stay at ND indefinitely? The answer is obviously no. Yall act like Elko lied to people, he got a better deal. ND had already given him their max offer and that was that.
No one claimed he needed to stay indefinitely. And saying "ND gave him their max offer" doesn't quite describe what happened either. ND gave him a very high offer that he accepted. Elko didn't leave the offer on the table to see if others might counter. Had he done that there would be nothing to complain about.

This is a poor characterization of what happened. When a coach agrees to terms, as Elko did, he is making a commitment. Not for life. Not indefinitely, but for at least a year is reasonable. Once you agree to terms you are either all-in for a reasonable amount of time (with one year being reasonable) or you are a disingenuous asshole who always had one foot out the door and can't be trusted.
 
The honesty factor depends on the spin. If he told ND he'd resign for the new K and then continued to receive offers then he wasn't honest. But who knows? Everyone BS's about their intentions after the fact.
How is that not honest. He wasn't seeking out offers. He didn't take ND's new offer and leverage it against A&M. A&M was told he passed because of ND's offer and went on to Aranda. It was only after whiffing on Aranda that they got desperate, circled back and dropped another 300k or something to that effect on the table. That type of money changes the paradigm.
 
i don't mind that Elko took the better deal, my issue was the lies. a coach represents the university and deceptions lies don't reflect well on nd.
 
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No one claimed he needed to stay indefinitely. And saying "ND gave him their max offer" doesn't quite describe what happened either. ND gave him a very high offer that he accepted. Elko didn't leave the offer on the table to see if others might counter. Had he done that there would be nothing to complain about.

This is a poor characterization of what happened. When a coach agrees to terms, as Elko did, he is making a commitment. Not for life. Not indefinitely, but for at least a year is reasonable. Once you agree to terms you are either all-in for a reasonable amount of time (with one year being reasonable) or you are a disingenuous asshole who always had one foot out the door and can't be trusted.
Those terms are based off facts that drastically changed. Its possible he could be a genuine person and someone who took advantage of a late offer that came up unexpectedly after the fact. Those aren't mutually exclusive. I just do not understand the bitterness of a guy that left ND in January when there was still time to figure things out and did so for a very clear and reasonable
 
i don't mind that Elko took the better deal, my issue was the lies. a coach represents the university and deceptions lies don't reflect well on nd.
Lol. Who did he lie to? What was the lie? Coaches all over the place lie, what lies are ones we can't stand for and what are ones that don't matter.
 
Those terms are based off facts that drastically changed. Its possible he could be a genuine person and someone who took advantage of a late offer that came up unexpectedly after the fact. Those aren't mutually exclusive. I just do not understand the bitterness of a guy that left ND in January when there was still time to figure things out and did so for a very clear and reasonable
You and I have covered this ground before. I'll repeat what I said back then.

Yes, other people in the business world do what Elko did but most do not. Most will commit to a company for a reasonable amount of time before looking to move on even if they could make a lot more money elsewhere because they, rightfully, believe "commitment" is part of any employee-business relationship. If you don't want to be committed to that company don't agree to terms. If you do agree to terms you should be committed for a reasonable amount of time. "Commitment" implies giving your word. Going back on a commitment means going back on your word. If you continue to entertain other offers soon after agreeing to terms you were never really committed in the first place which means your word didn't mean anything either.

Yes, such people exist in the business world. Most of us consider them assholes and that's what we're saying about Elko.
 
Those terms are based off facts that drastically changed. Its possible he could be a genuine person and someone who took advantage of a late offer that came up unexpectedly after the fact. Those aren't mutually exclusive. I just do not understand the bitterness of a guy that left ND in January when there was still time to figure things out and did so for a very clear and reasonable
Elko is that you?
 
Just don't understand people being so bitter a year later about a guy deciding to pick his pocketbook and family over an employer when ND wasn't unreasonable hurt by the situation.
One thing about Elko is he was a hell of a recruiter, look at the class he put together in his 1 year and what he's doing at A&M.
 
Lol. Who did he lie to? What was the lie? Coaches all over the place lie, what lies are ones we can't stand for and what are ones that don't matter.
How about the lie of “ I’m not going anywhere “ which apparently he told several recruits. So coaches lie “ all over the place” that it makes it right? That’s what we should aspire too? if you don’t understand that all lies matter and we shouldn’t stand for any of them I feel sorrow for you Sal
 
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How about the lie of “ I’m not going anywhere “ which apparently he told several recruits. So coaches lie “ all over the place” that it makes it right? That’s what we should aspire too? if you don’t understand that all lies matter and we shouldn’t stand for any of them I feel sorrow for you Sal
I am not saying that because all coaches lie that it makes it right. I am saying that when you are selective in your ethical/moral objection to lying it undermines the weight/value of the objection to lying. Brian Kelly lies to the media and he lies to recruits at times. We don't get outraged when he does that. Relativism in application of ethical standards is whatever, it is a human attempt to rationalize what makes them feel good. But I don't need fake pity from who pretends like he would turn down $300k because he already told a kid that he wasn't going anywhere. At the time the kids who had signed signed A&M had not even knocked on his door. So because he told recruits who signed in December that he was going to stay he has to stay through the whole season?
 
Why? He says "ND A&M is offering this do yall have a counter?" ND counters with a raise, he says thanks A&M but I am good here and A&M moves on to Aranda. Elko wasn't out there trying to take interview or find other offers to leverage ND further in the mean time. Two weeks later after striking out with Aranda A&M comes back and offers Elko 20% + over what ND offered him. He is just suppose to say no? Elko has a family, a 20% raise is a big deal, he gave ND the option again to match and ND passed, which they definitely have the right to do. What lacks integrity about that? Loyalty is overrated in business when you are talking about employees to their employer. Your employer will send you to the curb when it is time and you wont get notice. Elko has a right to get his stacks, look out for his family and take care of himself. Where hurt ND in the process or misrepresent to ND anything about the process?

If I hear ‘a guy has to take care of his family’ excuse one more time I’m gonna throw up. I’m guessing the line was originally meant, and rightfully so, to make the point going from $13/hr. to $15 or more was extremely important in providing his/her family a better life. $2-3 million a year is not about taking care of family. That said these guys are in a money grab situation and could not care less about loyalty to any head coaches. I can’t really blame em I guess since it certainly goes both ways. I’m not totally buying it’s a cutthroat business either. When a dumbass like VanGorder continues to get hired and recycled we see it all the time.
 
No one claimed he needed to stay indefinitely. And saying "ND gave him their max offer" doesn't quite describe what happened either. ND gave him a very high offer that he accepted. Elko didn't leave the offer on the table to see if others might counter. Had he done that there would be nothing to complain about.

This is a poor characterization of what happened. When a coach agrees to terms, as Elko did, he is making a commitment. Not for life. Not indefinitely, but for at least a year is reasonable. Once you agree to terms you are either all-in for a reasonable amount of time (with one year being reasonable) or you are a disingenuous asshole who always had one foot out the door and can't be trusted.

Exactly right 110%. Well said.
 
Extra 300k?! Is that what he jumped after when they came back around?! Jesus that’s worse than I thought. Yes, you still pass and tell them thanks I’m committed for at least another year since I agreed to terms here and gave them my word. Reach out to my agent in 12 months and we’ll see if anything has changed.
 
If I hear ‘a guy has to take care of his family’ excuse one more time I’m gonna throw up. I’m guessing the line was originally meant, and rightfully so, to make the point going from $13/hr. to $15 or more was extremely important in providing his/her family a better life. $2-3 million a year is not about taking care of family. That said these guys are in a money grab situation and could not care less about loyalty to any head coaches. I can’t really blame em I guess since it certainly goes both ways. I’m not totally buying it’s a cutthroat business either. When a dumbass like VanGorder continues to get hired and recycled we see it all the time.
I think Sal’s Point is this happens everyday at all levels in the business world, and college football is really no different, and so selective outrage makes no sense. We (myself included) can get emotionally pissed and feel betrayed when it happens to our team, and that’s all part of being a fan; but at the end of the day, I don’t fault any coach under contract for accepting a significantly higher paycheck to leave, as long as their current employer is given an opportunity to match. Like any employee, they want to maximize their earning power and taking advantage of opportunities when they are a hot commodity makes perfect sense. I think the real distinction between one case to another, is whether the coach was actively manipulating events, or just a hot commodity target. The KK situation at USC strikes me as the former and deserving of disdain, and Elko the later.
 
If I hear ‘a guy has to take care of his family’ excuse one more time I’m gonna throw up. I’m guessing the line was originally meant, and rightfully so, to make the point going from $13/hr. to $15 or more was extremely important in providing his/her family a better life. $2-3 million a year is not about taking care of family. That said these guys are in a money grab situation and could not care less about loyalty to any head coaches. I can’t really blame em I guess since it certainly goes both ways. I’m not totally buying it’s a cutthroat business either. When a dumbass like VanGorder continues to get hired and recycled we see it all the time.
Why are you counting other people's money?
 
I think Sal’s Point is this happens everyday at all levels in the business world, and college football is really no different, and so selective outrage makes no sense. We (myself included) can get emotionally pissed and feel betrayed when it happens to our team, and that’s all part of being a fan; but at the end of the day, I don’t fault any coach under contract for accepting a significantly higher paycheck to leave, as long as their current employer is given an opportunity to match. Like any employee, they want to maximize their earning power and taking advantage of opportunities when they are a hot commodity makes perfect sense. I think the real distinction between one case to another, is whether the coach was actively manipulating events, or just a hot commodity target. The KK situation at USC strikes me as the former and deserving of disdain, and Elko the later.
Yes. I think the selective outrage is disingenuous because no one really cares about what happened outside of the fact that it happened to ND. The farther away we get from it the less and less sense it makes to be still so biter about it. On the Kingsbury situation, I put that on Swan. Knowing what Kingsbury's ambitions were signing him up and putting that low of a buyout on his contract is dumb.
 
I think Sal’s Point is this happens everyday at all levels in the business world, and college football is really no different, and so selective outrage makes no sense.
Sorry, Telx1, but your characterization is not true. This isn't selective outrage. It's consistent outrage. I've already commented about what happens in the real world - yes, there are job-hoppers in the real world and most of us think they are shitty employees - but let's get back to the actual topic. Coaches who did what Elko did have generally been considered assholes and not selectively so. Look at Todd Grahm. He job hopped from 1 program to the next until he became one of the most hated coaches in the country and was once voted as the most untrustworthy coach in America by top recruits. Those recruits cited his habit of leaving teams after 1 or 2 years as the reason they couldn't trust him. He's been out of a job for over a year and I don't believe there's been a lot of interest in him even though he has an overall good record. He's been considered an asshole by the general sports public because he couldn't stick around 1 program for a reasonable amount of time. Look at Bobby Petrino's less than 1 year stint with the Falcons. Most non-Falcons fans thought that quitting after less than 1 season was a dick move and this was even before he was revealed to be a true sleazebag during his stint at Arkansas. And then there's Larry Brown, who was one hell of a basketball coach, but was also considered an asshole by many neutral fans for hopping around jobs so much.

This isn't something that people get disgusted about just because it happened to "our" team. People are pretty consistent for calling out dick moves even when it doesn't affect their team and that includes this thread which was prompted by a Georgia coach. Who on this board gives a shit about Georgia? I'm pretty sure no one does but a lot of us do like to call out dick moves and this may have been one of them. And if someone introduces the topic of "dick moves made by coaches," comparing Cheney's situation to Elko's does seem appropriate for this board, and I really don't see a reason why that topic shouldn't be brought up on a sports message board.
 
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Sorry, Telx1, but your characterization is not true. This isn't selective outrage. It's consistent outrage. I've already commented about what happens in the real world - yes, there are job-hoppers in the real world and most of us think they are shitty employees - but let's get back to the actual topic. Coaches who did what Elko did have generally been considered assholes and not selectively so. Look at Todd Grahm. He job hopped from 1 program to the next until he became one of the most hated coaches in the country and was once voted as the most untrustworthy coach in America by top recruits. Those recruits cited his habit of leaving teams after 1 or 2 years as the reason they couldn't trust him. He's been out of a job for over a year and I don't believe there's been a lot of interest in him even though he has an overall good record. He's been considered an asshole by the general sports public because he couldn't stick around 1 program for a reasonable amount of time. Look at Bobby Petrino's less than 1 year stint with the Falcons. Most non-Falcons fans thought that quitting after less than 1 season was a dick move and this was even before he was revealed to be a true sleazebag during his stint at Arkansas. And then there's Larry Brown, who was one hell of a basketball coach, but was also considered an asshole by many neutral fans for hopping around jobs so much.

This isn't something that people get disgusted about just because it happened to "our" team. People are pretty consistent for calling out dick moves even when it doesn't affect their team and that includes this thread which was prompted by a Georgia coach. Who on this board gives a shit about Georgia? I'm pretty sure no one does but a lot of us do like to call out dick moves and this may have been one of them. And if someone introduces the topic of "dick moves made by coaches," comparing Cheney's situation to Elko's does seem appropriate for this board, and I really don't see a reason why that topic shouldn't be brought up on a sports message board.

There's a book @10 years old something like What the Mafia Can Teach You about Real Business The reformed gangster lists a bunch of things you should never do, and one of them was change crews too often;. They whacked a guy just for changing his team every few months..
 
Sorry, Telx1, but your characterization is not true. This isn't selective outrage. It's consistent outrage. I've already commented about what happens in the real world - yes, there are job-hoppers in the real world and most of us think they are shitty employees - but let's get back to the actual topic. Coaches who did what Elko did have generally been considered assholes and not selectively so. Look at Todd Grahm. He job hopped from 1 program to the next until he became one of the most hated coaches in the country and was once voted as the most untrustworthy coach in America by top recruits. Those recruits cited his habit of leaving teams after 1 or 2 years as the reason they couldn't trust him. He's been out of a job for over a year and I don't believe there's been a lot of interest in him even though he has an overall good record. He's been considered an asshole by the general sports public because he couldn't stick around 1 program for a reasonable amount of time. Look at Bobby Petrino's less than 1 year stint with the Falcons. Most non-Falcons fans thought that quitting after less than 1 season was a dick move and this was even before he was revealed to be a true sleazebag during his stint at Arkansas. And then there's Larry Brown, who was one hell of a basketball coach, but was also considered an asshole by many neutral fans for hopping around jobs so much.

This isn't something that people get disgusted about just because it happened to "our" team. People are pretty consistent for calling out dick moves even when it doesn't affect their team and that includes this thread which was prompted by a Georgia coach. Who on this board gives a shit about Georgia? I'm pretty sure no one does but a lot of us do like to call out dick moves and this may have been one of them. And if someone introduces the topic of "dick moves made by coaches," comparing Chaney's situation to Elko's does seem appropriate for this board, and I really don't see a reason why that topic shouldn't be brought up on a sports message board.
1. Not sure the premise Graham "job hopped" is even true. He spent 4 years at Tulsa, left for Pitt for 1 year, and then spent 6 years at ASU and got fired from there because his last 3 years were disappointing. Each year he left for arguably a better job and definitely a better offer until he got fired. The only job he really bounced from was Pitt after a year for ASU. Him not getting another job after ASU may be his reputation but I am going to guess the bigger factor is that he doesn't want a coordinator position and he hasn't been willing to interview at lower level schools(G5) he was a finalist at KU this past year though.

2. Everything you are talking about here is different then the argument that was being made initially. I think we can all agree that you shouldn't be an asshole in business. I think where we disagree is that I do not believe that Elko making decision to take a new offer that was better then what ND gave him makes him an asshole in and of itself. Additionally I do not believe there is any ethical or moral principle that Elko violated that would suggest what he did was bad.

3. This is definitely selective outrage because in the 3 examples you provided no one here cares about that shit. In fact, Petrino, before the debacle that was last year was considered by many on this board as well as nationally to be a good coach independent of him being a dick. No one on this board gets mad at that stuff, and no one on this board cares or is even really mad at Cheney for the situation between him and UGA. The only reason anyone here cares is because it reminds them of Elko and ND. This tells me that (a) people only really care about the Elko situation because they believe that ND got screwed and (b) that if people only care because ND is involved then the probability that what Elko did is ethically/morally wrong is minimal.
 
Sorry, Telx1, but your characterization is not true. This isn't selective outrage. It's consistent outrage. I've already commented about what happens in the real world - yes, there are job-hoppers in the real world and most of us think they are shitty employees - but let's get back to the actual topic. Coaches who did what Elko did have generally been considered assholes and not selectively so. Look at Todd Grahm. He job hopped from 1 program to the next until he became one of the most hated coaches in the country and was once voted as the most untrustworthy coach in America by top recruits. Those recruits cited his habit of leaving teams after 1 or 2 years as the reason they couldn't trust him. He's been out of a job for over a year and I don't believe there's been a lot of interest in him even though he has an overall good record. He's been considered an asshole by the general sports public because he couldn't stick around 1 program for a reasonable amount of time. Look at Bobby Petrino's less than 1 year stint with the Falcons. Most non-Falcons fans thought that quitting after less than 1 season was a dick move and this was even before he was revealed to be a true sleazebag during his stint at Arkansas. And then there's Larry Brown, who was one hell of a basketball coach, but was also considered an asshole by many neutral fans for hopping around jobs so much.

This isn't something that people get disgusted about just because it happened to "our" team. People are pretty consistent for calling out dick moves even when it doesn't affect their team and that includes this thread which was prompted by a Georgia coach. Who on this board gives a shit about Georgia? I'm pretty sure no one does but a lot of us do like to call out dick moves and this may have been one of them. And if someone introduces the topic of "dick moves made by coaches," comparing Cheney's situation to Elko's does seem appropriate for this board, and I really don't see a reason why that topic shouldn't be brought up on a sports message board.
Sal responded before I even read your post, so no reason for me to expand on this. Frankly, I don’t really follow or care what happens elsewhere in college football, unless it impacts ND. In the abstract, I agree with you that repeated job hopping one year to the next is worthy of criticism, but that doesn’t fairly describe either Cheney or Elko. We simply disagree as to whether these two coaches made dick moves. That said, never suggested or support the notion that this topic is not appropriate here.
 
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