If you can’t run the ball

[Patrirish]

You can’t eat up the clock .......

You can’t keep the ball away from your opponent.

You can’t control TOP.

You can’t protect a lead in the 4th quarter.

You can’t perform well in difficult weather.

You become too QB dependent (injury)

You make passing successfully more difficult

What else ?

 

[d1042]

omg! that’s genius!

 

[Patrirish]

omg! that’s genius!

I can understand why YOU would think that.

 

[IrishHerb]

I've always been a big fan of run first offenses.

If you look back on ND's best years after 1960, you'll see :

• During Ara's tenure, he had some good passing QBs, Huarte, Hanratty, Theismann, but his teams could still run on anybody.
• Devine's offense was basically run oriented.
• Holtz, was run first, some option. When he finally got a passing QB, his offense seemed to start to have trouble.

I've left Kelly out of the listing above. Granted, his offense often puts up points ... but against top foes, in bad weather, etc ... his offense often has problems.

 

[Golson5]

I've always been a big fan of run first offenses.

If you look back on ND's best years after 1960, you'll see :

• During Ara's tenure, he had some good passing QBs, Huarte, Hanratty, Theismann, but his teams could still run on anybody.
• Devine's offense was basically run oriented.
• Holtz, was run first, some option. When he finally got a passing QB, his offense seemed to start to have trouble.

I've left Kelly out of the listing above. Granted, his offense often puts up points ... but against top foes, in bad weather, etc ... his offense often has problems.

The game has changed dramatically since those days

 

[Patrirish]

The game has changed dramatically since those days

Last year’s Michigan game contradicts that statement.

 

[Golson5]

Last year’s Michigan game contradicts that statement.

Yeah 1 game between 2 of the 100 plus fbs teams in a rain storm really disproves that. Okay.

 

[Patrirish]

Yeah 1 game between 2 of the 100 plus fbs teams in a rain storm really disproves that. Okay.

That’s not just one game, it’s just one game I chose to cite.

How about ND vs Clemson, 88 yards in 35 attempts for 2.5 per attempt.
How’d the lack of a running game work out in that game ?

 

[Patrirish]

Yeah 1 game between 2 of the 100 plus fbs teams in a rain storm really disproves that. Okay.

So football is only played on mild, bright sunny days ?

Like the ND vs Penn State game ?

ND vs Houston ?

I always thought that ND was in Northern Indiana and that we played Michigan, Wisconsin, Michigan State and other teams north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

 

[Golson5]

So football is only played on mild, bright sunny days ?

Like the ND vs Penn State game ?

ND vs Houston ?

I always thought that ND was in Northern Indiana and that we played Michigan, Wisconsin, Michigan State and other teams north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

If you dont think the game has changed dramatically since the 70s/80s then theres nothing left to say. You aren't paying attention

 

[tbonesays]

I feel it's useless without addressing power running vs spread system. By the same logic if you cannot accurately pass over 10 yards then you cannot run it.

 

[Patrirish]

I feel it's useless without addressing power running vs spread system. By the same logic if you cannot accurately pass over 10 yards then you cannot run it.

Would you say that Michigan’s performance against ND refutes your premise

 

[Patrirish]

If you dont think the game has changed dramatically since the 70s/80s then theres nothing left to say. You aren't paying attention

The fundamentals and the object of the game haven’t changed in close to 100 years.

How about 2012, had the game changed dramatically since the 70’s/80’s ?

Maybe someone forgot to tell Alabama.

45 attempts for 265 yards, or 5.9 YPC. against a vaunted defense.

Yep, the game sure had changed since the 70’s/80’s !

 

[Golson5]

1988 National Champion Notre Dame vs 2019 National Champion LSU

ND pass att per gm - 15.5
LSU pass att per gm - 37.8

ND rush att per gm - 53.9
LSU rush att per gm - 33.9

The game of football has changed dramatically. They don't play the same way anymore.

 

[Patrirish]

National Championship Playoffs

Against the best teams in the country

LSU 165 yards (5.1 YPA) vs Clemson 160 yards

LSU 166 yards vs Alabama 123 Yards.

Yeah, nobody runs the ball anymore, especially the best college team in modern times.

And let’s not forget, those teams play in the warm, sunny south.

 

[Golson5]

National Championship Playoffs

Against the best teams in the country

LSU 165 yards (5.1 YPA) vs Clemson 160 yards

LSU 166 yards vs Alabama 123 Yards.

Yeah, nobody runs the ball anymore, especially the best college team in modern times.

And let’s not forget, those teams play in the warm, sunny south.

No one said "nobody runs the ball anymore". But the game has changed. The game is totally different now compared to the 70s and 80s.

You mentioned those 4 playoff teams. They run the ball well and efficiently. But our 1988 squad ran for 253 ypg. The script has flipped.

 

[Patrirish]

No one said "nobody runs the ball anymore". But the game has changed. The game is totally different now compared to the 70s and 80s.

You mentioned those 4 playoff teams. They run the ball well and efficiently. But our 1988 squad ran for 253 ypg. The script has flipped.

In 1988, 8 of the 11 regular season games were in northern climates.

The weather in Baton Rouge differs significantly from that in South Bend ?

I also think that the hash marks were moved in 1993 which influenced the game, along with a good number of rule changes in the intervening years.

 

[tbonesays]

Would you say that Michigan’s performance against ND refutes your premise

how?

 

[88ND]

I've been involved with football a long long time.

It's a different era. Different philosophy.

Running is still important but not when you've hist given up two or three quick scores. You must be able to score quickly.

Some games will be a 45-41 game. Some might be a 52-48 game. Yes even the Bama and Clemson teams have their shootouts.

You have to be able to score quickly. You also have to make the defense play even footed. They don't pay us any big play respect and they shouldn't.
The opposing defense plays downhill against us and just stones our run game.

Go back over the years and look at our ypc against the weak teams and then look at the ypc against the strong teams.

You'd expect a little drop off since it's a better team but not that much.

Example...
2017...this is the year we won the phony offensive line award. It's phony because it's voted on by the offensive line coaches in the country.
Who the hell really has time to observe all the teams out their and their line play...while trying to coach and critique your very own line.

Regardless we win that award because we had two all Americans. Nelson and Mcglinchey.

Back to the stats.
Against Miami of Ohio...
we had 39 carries for 333 yards.

Against Georgia we had
37 carries for 55 yards.

You'd expect a dropoff but not that much.

That's the real problem.
We've no explosive players or we don't have an explosive scheme to keep all defenses honest.

So you can get all giddy about the line on paper but make no mistake without a big boy passing attack our running game will continue underachieving when it matters most.

 

[Golson5]

In 1988, 8 of the 11 regular season games were in northern climates.

The weather in Baton Rouge differs significantly from that in South Bend ?

I also think that the hash marks were moved in 1993 which influenced the game, along with a good number of rule changes in the intervening years.

A lot of things have influenced the game. I know. Many reasons why the game is so different now

 

[IrishHerb]

I've been involved with football a long long time.

It's a different era. Different philosophy.

Running is still important but not when you've hist given up two or three quick scores. You must be able to score quickly.

Some games will be a 45-41 game. Some might be a 52-48 game. Yes even the Bama and Clemson teams have their shootouts.

You have to be able to score quickly. You also have to make the defense play even footed. They don't pay us any big play respect and they shouldn't.
The opposing defense plays downhill against us and just stones our run game.

Go back over the years and look at our ypc against the weak teams and then look at the ypc against the strong teams.

You'd expect a little drop off since it's a better team but not that much.

Example...
2017...this is the year we won the phony offensive line award. It's phony because it's voted on by the offensive line coaches in the country.
Who the hell really has time to observe all the teams out their and their line play...while trying to coach and critique your very own line.

Regardless we win that award because we had two all Americans. Nelson and Mcglinchey.

Back to the stats.
Against Miami of Ohio...
we had 39 carries for 333 yards.

Against Georgia we had
37 carries for 55 yards.

You'd expect a dropoff but not that much.

That's the real problem.
We've no explosive players or we don't have an explosive scheme to keep all defenses honest.

So you can get all giddy about the line on paper but make no mistake without a big boy passing attack our running game will continue underachieving when it matters most.

Another way to look at our current run game ... look at our short yardage package. How many times have we failed to score or get first down on 3rd and 2 or 4th and 2? Against anybody. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but Kelly and his offense coaches just don't seem to have a clue as to what a successful run game is.

 

[Patrirish]

how?

How ?

Michigan didn’t pass much but they ran the ball very well, refuting your theory that you need to pass the ball in order to run well

Michigan 8-14 passing
Michigan rushing 57 attempts 303 yards, 5.32 per attempt

ND rushing 31 attempts, 47 yards. 1.52 per attempt
ND 11-29 passing 133 yards

 

[Patrirish]

Another way to look at our current run game ... look at our short yardage package. How many times have we failed to score or get first down on 3rd and 2 or 4th and 2? Against anybody. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but Kelly and his offense coaches just don't seem to have a clue as to what a successful run game is.

Herb, Glad you brought that up, it was embarrassing

So many times they couldn’t get 1 or 2 yards to sustain a drive.

 

[88ND]

How ?

Michigan didn’t pass much but they ran the ball very well, refuting your theory that you need to pass the ball in order to run well

Michigan 8-14 passing
Michigan rushing 57 attempts 303 yards, 5.32 per attempt

ND rushing 31 attempts, 47 yards. 1.52 per attempt
ND 11-29 passing 133 yards

Why are you clinging to this Michigan game played in shit weather?

First of all BK is too ignorant to even practice one damn time in wet weather.

Who got the lead in that game? Michigan. Was the field tilted? Yep.

I can give you countless examples of why our lack of big plays in the passing game kill our running game whilst your clinging on to this UM debacle of a game.

Ridiculous.

 

[tbonesays]

How ?

Michigan didn’t pass much but they ran the ball very well, refuting your theory that you need to pass the ball in order to run well

Michigan 8-14 passing
Michigan rushing 57 attempts 303 yards, 5.32 per attempt

ND rushing 31 attempts, 47 yards. 1.52 per attempt
ND 11-29 passing 133 yards

I believe Michigan had a very specific scheme based upon scouting that noticed we tended to over-pursue. and of course there will be individual games where one side just can't stop the run.

 

[chicity]

Another way to look at our current run game ... look at our short yardage package. How many times have we failed to score or get first down on 3rd and 2 or 4th and 2? Against anybody. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but Kelly and his offense coaches just don't seem to have a clue as to what a successful run game is.

How many times have we seen a 4th and 1 or 2 inside the five yard line and we are lined up in shotgun, TE goes in motion and is stationary for a second, telling everybody where the ball is going, before the ball is snapped and of course didn't make it. This absolutely drives me fricking nuts

 

[tbonesays]

How many times have we seen a 4th and 1 or 2 inside the five yard line and we are lined up in shotgun, TE goes in motion and is stationary for a second, telling everybody where the ball is going, before the ball is snapped and of course didn't make it. This absolutely drives me fricking nuts

I recall it started right out of the gate @ Louisville where we couldn't pick up those short yards. Wasn't there some podcast where they diagnosed us as pulling the same lineman in every short yardage situation?

 

[irishdave2000]

You can’t eat up the clock .......

You can’t keep the ball away from your opponent.

You can’t control TOP.

You can’t protect a lead in the 4th quarter.

You can’t perform well in difficult weather.

You become too QB dependent (injury)

You make passing successfully more difficult

What else ?

 

[irishdave2000]

ND"s problem is that we run out of the shotgun even a blind man can find the ball carrier!

 

[d1042]

ND"s problem is that we run out of the shotgun even a blind man can find the ball carrier!

everyone runs out of the spread? no?

 

[Patrirish]

Why are you clinging to this Michigan game played in shit weather?

First of all BK is too ignorant to even practice one damn time in wet weather.

Who got the lead in that game? Michigan. Was the field tilted? Yep.

I can give you countless examples of why our lack of big plays in the passing game kill our running game whilst your clinging on to this UM debacle of a game.

Ridiculous.

I’m not clinging, I’m citing an example of what happens if your offense is based on passing and you encounter bad weather.

Notre Dame lost to Clemson in another bad weather day.
Go look at the stats.
ND 321 yards passing, Clemson 84
ND running 111, Clemson 212

I happen to believe that ND should have won that game by 2 TD’s had it not been for fumbles and dropped passes, but that’s what accompanies adverse weather

But the fact remains that if you rely on the pass, Mother Nature will upset your applecart.

Why don’t you look at the stats of the greatest football dynasty in history, the Patriots. Look at their completion percentage, and more importantly their yards per attempt, and then tell us about the significance of “big plays in the passing game”

 

[88ND]

I’m not clinging, I’m citing an example of what happens if your offense is based on passing and you encounter bad weather.

Notre Dame lost to Clemson in another bad weather day.
Go look at the stats.
ND 321 yards passing, Clemson 84
ND running 111, Clemson 212

I happen to believe that ND should have won that game by 2 TD’s had it not been for fumbles and dropped passes, but that’s what accompanies adverse weather

But the fact remains that if you rely on the pass, Mother Nature will upset your applecart.

Why don’t you look at the stats of the greatest football dynasty in history, the Patriots. Look at their completion percentage, and more importantly their yards per attempt, and then tell us about the significance of “big plays in the passing game”

Oh good lord.

Would it help if we had practiced in wet weather? How about just once. As in maybe leading up to that game. Every person in the world knew it
was going to be ugly weather.

Yes or no?

That alone helps...right?

How many practices in wet weather simulated or otherwise? Z E R O. All year. Zero. That's what the 5 or 6 million gets us at ND. An arrogantly ignorant coach who in disguise coaches like an amateur.

Pathetic. Again. Pathetic.


The Patriots?

What part of being able to practice 8 hours every day as a PROFESSIONAL don't you understand?Pros have the time to dedicate to the craft.


Balance is key but in college football today you MUST stretch the field and be able to score quickly if needed.....if you want to be elite.

If you're ok being fools gold then keep jamming the square peg in the round hole

 

[sluggo69]

Run. The. Damn. Ball.

 

[d1042]

I’m not clinging, I’m citing an example of what happens if your offense is based on passing and you encounter bad weather.

Notre Dame lost to Clemson in another bad weather day.
Go look at the stats.
ND 321 yards passing, Clemson 84
ND running 111, Clemson 212

I happen to believe that ND should have won that game by 2 TD’s had it not been for fumbles and dropped passes, but that’s what accompanies adverse weather

But the fact remains that if you rely on the pass, Mother Nature will upset your applecart.

Why don’t you look at the stats of the greatest football dynasty in history, the Patriots. Look at their completion percentage, and more importantly their yards per attempt, and then tell us about the significance of “big plays in the passing game”

ah...the delusion!

 

[Weisnheimer]

Yeah 1 game between 2 of the 100 plus fbs teams in a rain storm really disproves that. Okay.

Always this excuse. Doesn't the other team also have to play in that inclement weather?

 

[d1042]

Always this excuse. Doesn't the other team also have to play in that inclement weather?

what they really mean is the other team won and that’s just unfair!

 

[Golson5]

Always this excuse. Doesn't the other team also have to play in that inclement weather?

I think you missed the conversation. Try keeping up

 

[Patrirish]

Oh good lord.

Would it help if we had practiced in wet weather? How about just once. As in maybe leading up to that game. Every person in the world knew it
was going to be ugly weather.

Yes or no?

That alone helps...right?

How many practices in wet weather simulated or otherwise? Z E R O. All year. Zero. That's what the 5 or 6 million gets us at ND. An arrogantly ignorant coach who in disguise coaches like an amateur.

Pathetic. Again. Pathetic.


The Patriots?

What part of being able to practice 8 hours every day as a PROFESSIONAL don't you understand?Pros have the time to dedicate to the craft.


Balance is key but in college football today you MUST stretch the field and be able to score quickly if needed.....if you want to be elite.

If you're ok being fools gold then keep jamming the square peg in the round hole

Thanks for confirming my point. It’s obvious that you never looked up the CP and YPA stats for the Patriots.

You’re right, they’re Pros, they practice 8 hours a day.
And thay have the greatest QB of all time.
And yet, with a high CP the YPA is low.
Why is that ?

maybe, just maybe the long ball you’re referring to is more of a myth than a reality.

Practice in the rain ?
Don’t you need to have it rain in order to practice in the rain ?

Okay, no rain, use hoses.
But how do you replicate the wind ?

ND didn’t lose to Michigan because they didn’t practice in the rain.
They were out coached and out played

47 yards on 31 carries!
And you think practicing in the rain would have improved that ?

Michigan gained 303 yards on 57 attempts and you think that practicing in the rain would have diminished that ?

How about TOP, 34:37 vs 25:23 and you think that practicing in the rain would change that ratio ?

You’re not coming to grips with reality.

And, you talk as if the other teams don’t know how to play defense.

“Stretch the Field” ?
How do you stretch the field when your QB has 3 seconds to release the ball.

Offense begins and ends with the OLINE !

 

[88ND]

Thanks for confirming my point. It’s obvious that you never looked up the CP and YPA stats for the Patriots.

You’re right, they’re Pros, they practice 8 hours a day.
And thay have the greatest QB of all time.
And yet, with a high CP the YPA is low.
Why is that ?

maybe, just maybe the long ball you’re referring to is more of a myth than a reality.

Practice in the rain ?
Don’t you need to have it rain in order to practice in the rain ?

Okay, no rain, use hoses.
But how do you replicate the wind ?

ND didn’t lose to Michigan because they didn’t practice in the rain.
They were out coached and out played

47 yards on 31 carries!
And you think practicing in the rain would have improved that ?

Michigan gained 303 yards on 57 attempts and you think that practicing in the rain would have diminished that ?

How about TOP, 34:37 vs 25:23 and you think that practicing in the rain would change that ratio ?

You’re not coming to grips with reality.

And, you talk as if the other teams don’t know how to play defense.

“Stretch the Field” ?
How do you stretch the field when your QB has 3 seconds to release the ball.

Offense begins and ends with the OLINE !

Stop...just stop.

The pros have time to work on the craft. The pros have no mismatches... at least not like college.

I find it hilarious that right before your very eyes the best offensive team we've had under BK was the most explosive with down field passing.

BK's been in three big post season games and only one of them we moved the ball a fair bit. That was the OSU game.

You keep on thinking this afraid of failure passing game is the recipe for success (because the pro's do it) while the elite in college football have huge plays every week.

Remember they are scoring 30 points by the mid second quarter.

We finish the game with 30 points.

They can score points quickly in a shootout is needed. Us???? If the other team had three quick scores we lose by 35.


Lastly...


How in the hell can you defend BK? Seriously...he's fools gold.

 

[tbonesays]

How about an offense that tries 45 attempts gaining 108 for a hefty 2.4 yards per rush?

Spoiler: The defense was

Army defending Harbaugh's attack @Michigan. Did Michigan forget to practice in the sun?

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