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I Need Honest Offensive Line Analysis

Toby Smart

All Star
Aug 28, 2002
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When you are sitting ground level , corner end zone, you don't have much perspective of individual play, so I am asking about the performances of two Offensive Linemen. Robert Hainsey was called for movement on one play and blocking below the waist on another. Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call? Second. How was the play of Liam Eichenberg at LT? Post game show said he had a rough night. Thanks in advance.
 
There were times he struggled----Burns is a really good player.

Both Cuse DE's are long and very athletic.

We will need a great game from both Tackles Saturday.
 
When you are sitting ground level , corner end zone, you don't have much perspective of individual play, so I am asking about the performances of two Offensive Linemen. Robert Hainsey was called for movement on one play and blocking below the waist on another. Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call? Second. How was the play of Liam Eichenberg at LT? Post game show said he had a rough night. Thanks in advance.

I'm glad you asked about the chop block. I thought it was an example of what we call a cut block and that a teammate had to be engaged with the defender, with the second blocker hitting him below the waist for it to be a chop block. They called it a "curious" call and questioned whether it was in the tackle box. I wasn't aware that is part of the rule, because backs block below the waist all the time in pass protection.
 
Right. Radio guys said it was a chop. Ref said it was blocking below the waist. Just wondering.
 
It wasn’t a chop block. There was no other blocker in contact. A lineman is supposed to be able to block below the waist if he is within the tackle box and the ball hasn’t left the tackle box yet. They must have thought one of those had happened.
 
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It was one of a few glaring missed calls against the irish.
Not a chop block. Hainsey angled himself and he was not taking the defender head on and at his legs. It was a block you see a million times on kickoffs and sweeps
 
Eichenberg couldn’t even sniff Burns. Banks is really impressing and moving guys off the ball, playing nasty, Kraemer has stepped up.
 
This o-line played its best half of football and rammed it down their throats after Kelly and Long realized 1. we were was way up 2. our defense just doesn't give up big plays and even when Fla St was moving it, which wasn't often, it was burning clock 3. Brandon was having trouble with the zone...

They really beat them down when it counted! Liam looked lost out there in pass blocking.

10-0 and counting. Win and advance.
 
With Williams running for a career-high of 202 yards on 20 carries and touchdown runs of 58 and 32, the Irish exploded for a season-high 365 (against #17 FLA ST). Their previous high was 272 against Stanford (#49).
 
Thought Banks had a good game and is improving weekly. Thought Eichenberg struggled with speed on pass protection, but he and Banks did some really nice team blocking on runs. I thought it was Kraemers best game. Hainsey had some outstanding blocks on runs, and thought the call against him was bad. Thought the officiating was worse than usual, especially in the first half. DExeter looked explosive and quick and decisive, and obviously had a career night. As a team, I thought the OL had its best game against one of the nations better defenses.
 
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He’s been good in the run game all year, pass pro was god awful last night. Technique has been poor all year
Disagree strongly that his technique has been poor all year. far from it. he did struggle saturday night but thats football. sometimes you tip your hat to the other guy.
 
He’s been good in the run game all year, pass pro was god awful last night. Technique has been poor all year

Eichenberg had a tough time with one of the very best pass rushers in the nation. No question.

But to say he was "God Awful" on a night where he gave up 0 sacks...... lol

(though this isn't any worse that your usual idiocy)
 
I felt like Eichenberg has yet to trust in his abilities. It felt like he was trying to guess last night. He probably is our most athletic starting lineman, but he needs to gain confidence. Too many times he got beat inside, that just can't happen as often as it did. It's one thing to get beat on the inside, another to barely even get a hand on him. If felt like he was trying to get back so fast, instead of trusting his abilities and reacting to whatever moves burns did. Burns is fast as can be and you're going to lose some, but he let him through a few times with next to no resistance.

Need him to get back on track next week for book.
 
On a night where ND had 365 yards rushing and 0 sacks allowed, I'm not gonna complain. Yes, I saw #74 whiff and miss a few, but that's to be expected against a guy like Burns. Let's hope he learns from this and improves.
 
Robert Hainsey was called for movement on one play and blocking below the waist on another. Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call?

BK talked about this yesterday in his Sunday press conference. Here's the question and his response:

Q: Just the curiosity factor, there's always so much talk about the cut blocks with Navy, and Robert Hainsey got that penalty. Was he outside the five-yard limit? I didn't really look, but did you think that was a cut because he wasn't engaged with somebody else for a chop.

KELLY:
“It was extremely questionable. They called it a chop block. We didn't see it that way. He was cutting the backside three technique as our guard was never engaged working up to the second level. We don't agree with the call. We have sent it in for evaluation by the ACC.
 
Just a note about the running game in the 2nd half:

The first half FSU was playing man coverage & stacking the box. Wimbush had a great first half because of it.
The second half FSU dropped back in zone & ND killed them between the tackles with the running game.
If FSU would have done the opposite then ND would have had a big run game the first half & pass game the second half.
 
It was the best game from the OL all year. While Eichenberg did struggle in pass protection (against one of the best DE’s in CFB), there were a ton of positives.
 
Eichenberg had a tough time with one of the very best pass rushers in the nation. No question.

But to say he was "God Awful" on a night where he gave up 0 sacks...... lol

(though this isn't any worse that your usual idiocy)
If that’s a statue qb back there he’d have given up probably 3
 
If that’s a statue qb back there he’d have given up probably 3

Anytime you have to back up an opinion with hypothetical results that directly conflict with what actually happened on the field… You know your opinion is garbage.

Thanks for playing!
 
Coaches have 2 hours a day to work with their players. That being said, they basically have to focus on run blocking or pass blocking. Can’t be great at both Look at Alabama this year. There running game hasn’t been great. Ohio state pass blocks great, run blocking is meh
 
Anytime you have to back up an opinion with hypothetical results that directly conflict with what actually happened on the field… You know your opinion is garbage.

Thanks for playing!
Think it’s pretty inarguable to say Eichenberg did a very poor job pass blocking Saturday. He didn’t even know where to begin technique wise
 
Think it’s pretty inarguable to say Eichenberg did a very poor job pass blocking Saturday. He didn’t even know where to begin technique wise

His technique was inconsistent, but he ultimately kept one of the best pass rushers in the nation from ever getting to the QB, even 1x.

Thus, it’s actually unarguable that you’re overstating.

Thanks for playing!!
 
His technique was inconsistent, but he ultimately kept one of the best pass rushers in the nation from ever getting to the QB, even 1x.

Thus, it’s actually unarguable that you’re overstating.

Thanks for playing!!
Yes... but he was beat terrible probably 10 times which is clearly a problem. It’s not that hard to understand.
 
Yes... but he was beat terrible probably 10 times which is clearly a problem. It’s not that hard to understand.

Again, that’s a gross exaggeration.

He was beat 3-4 times by one of the best pass rushers in the nation and a probable 1st Round Pick.
It’s still not ideal and needs improvement.

But anytime a new LT keeps one of the nations elite pass rushers from getting a single sack or even 1 single TFL.....rhetoric like yours is clearly exaggerated and stupid.

Pretty simple.
 
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When you are sitting ground level , corner end zone, you don't have much perspective of individual play, so I am asking about the performances of two Offensive Linemen. Robert Hainsey was called for movement on one play and blocking below the waist on another. Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call? Second. How was the play of Liam Eichenberg at LT? Post game show said he had a rough night. Thanks in advance.

"Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call?"

Yes and yes -- as he was cut-blocking his defender (legally), the guard came and hit the same player high --
 
"Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call?"

Yes and yes

They called him for a chop block, but I do not believe that was the correct call.

In order for it to be a chop block, they need to be to blockers engaged on the same defender and one of those blockers needs to throw his block below the waist. In this case, Hainsey was the only black are engaged with his defender. So it cannot be a chop block, by definition.

That being said, I believe they could have called him for an illegal block below the waist, under a new rule being implemented for the first time this year.

Once a blocker is a certain distance from the line they can no longer throw a block below the waist in the direction away from the nearest side line (back towards the field).
 
They called him for a chop block, but I do not believe that was the correct call.

In order for it to be a chop block, they need to be to blockers engaged on the same defender and one of those blockers needs to throw his block below the waist. In this case, Hainsey was the only black are engaged with his defender. So it cannot be a chop block, by definition.

That being said, I believe they could have called him for an illegal block below the waist, under a new rule being implemented for the first time this year.

Once a blocker is a certain distance from the line they can no longer throw a block below the waist in the direction away from the nearest side line (back towards the field).
Does anyone have an account on Pro Football focus. I would be interested in what they are grading the lineman as they do it per game. I use Outsiders which evaluates raw stats which can be deceiving. Example, a great Oline with a crummy QB can appear to have bad numbers for run blocking if all defenses know it and stack nine in the box. Pro Football focus measures if a lineman is making the correct read and making his block. That would end the debate because the people making the decisions have no bias at least for a player.

I can't comment on any individual but the ND line has definitely taken a step back from last year in terms of stats. Other than sack rate all other categories have dropped down. I thought ND pass blocking was pretty good last year. It was just Wimbush was not real pocket aware and like all running QB's took more sacks as he trusted his legs over his brain. Take all raw stats with a grain of salt as they may not reflect the present as it is just a compilation of everything.

I think what the stats tell you is how important a competent QB is. I was looking at UM's raw Oline states and in many metrics they are inferior to last year. Pass blocking is better. But all of the run metrics are worse than last year. Replacing Wimbush with Book and O'Korn/Peters/Speight with Patterson does wonders to the total offensive production. I have to say I was wrong about Book.
 
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Does anyone have an account on Pro Football focus. I would be interested in what they are grading the lineman as they do it per game. I use Outsiders which evaluates raw stats which can be deceiving. Example, a great Oline with a crummy QB can appear to have bad numbers for run blocking if all defenses no it and stack nine in the box. Pro Football focus measures if a lineman is making the correct read and making his block. That would end the debate because the people making the decisions have no bias at least for a player.

I can't comment on any individual but the ND line has definitely taken a step back from last year in terms of stats. Other than sack rate all other categories have dropped down. I thought ND pass blocking was pretty good last year. It was just Wimbush was not real pocket aware and like all running QB's took more sacks as he trusted his legs over his brain. Take all raw stats with a grain of salt as they may not reflect the present as it is just a compilation of everything.

I think what the stats tell you is how important a competent QB is. I was looking at UM's raw Oline states and in may metrics they are inferior to last year. Pass blocking is better. But all of the run metrics are worse than last year. Replacing Wimbush with Book and O'Korn/Peters/Speight with Patterson does wonders to the total offensive production. I have to say I was wrong about Book.

Not a huge fan of PPF grading system for OLs.

Completely ignores the quality of a block and only looks at the outcome on a binary scale (+/-). So a dominant pancake block that takes out an LB too is graded the same as a block where the OL barely holds on and just avoids getting beat.
All penalties are also graded the same, which is dumb.
 
Not a huge fan of PPF grading system for OLs.

Completely ignores the quality of a block and only looks at the outcome on a binary scale (+/-). So a dominant pancake block that takes out an LB too is graded the same as a block where the OL barely holds on and just avoids getting beat.
All penalties are also graded the same, which is dumb.
But it is a data point. I have no problems with someone making the statement PFF said this but my eyes said something elsewhere. That has occurred with the mgoblog guys where they did their grading and scratch their heads when their attempt comes up with a different result from PFF. The reason for that is they only give a +0 for barely holding on and will rate the play from -5 to +5 based on what they did. The reality is I have never seen a lineman get more than a +3/-3. A +3 would be assigned for taking out multiple defenders and a -2 is given for a complete wif. I think a -3 has been given if a lineman makes an improper line call that causes multiple wifs. Kugler got a couple last year when the thought was he set the entire line up to fail. But that is harder because to really know you have to read minds. The biggest combo failure I have seen recently is the Rutgers TD run where they dinged three guys a -2, -3, and -3. The DE for taking a man who was already accounted for, the LB for taking the wrong gap, and the Safety for not properly doing a switch and taking the wrong angle.

Does anyone in the ND community attempt to grade the teams? For me I really enjoy it even in losses. I really get a feel for why my team failed or why that facet of the game struggled.
 
The FSU game was impressive for the OL. We ran for 365 yds on a team that was pretty good at rush defense (that was the one thing they were good at). They were ranked in the top 20 in rush defense going into the game.
 
They called him for a chop block, but I do not believe that was the correct call.

In order for it to be a chop block, they need to be to blockers engaged on the same defender and one of those blockers needs to throw his block below the waist. In this case, Hainsey was the only black are engaged with his defender. So it cannot be a chop block, by definition.

That being said, I believe they could have called him for an illegal block below the waist, under a new rule being implemented for the first time this year.

Once a blocker is a certain distance from the line they can no longer throw a block below the waist in the direction away from the nearest side line (back towards the field).

True -- and I believe Kelly sent the clip to the ACC for evaluation -- it was not so much the cut block (that was legal), but the guard -- I remember seeing on the screen at the stadium and questioning it, but would like to see it again.
 
"Was Robert called for an actual chop block and was it a good call?"

Yes and yes -- as he was cut-blocking his defender (legally), the guard came and hit the same player high --


Nobody else was engaged at any point with the linebacker that was cut.
 
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