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Clausen vs Buchner

NotreDame du Lac

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Jan 29, 2015
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Who had more upside? Who had more talent? I know Clausen was #1 overall, but he was kind of a bust as far as his pro career and he certainly was not the best quarterback in the class that year. A guy like Patrick Mahomes can be low ranked and end up the greatest by far in his class. Anyone with knowledge of the two have any thoughts on their respective upsides and the major differences between them? It seemed Clausen had a monster arm and incredible accuracy. But there was something off in his game that kept him from excelling.
 
Buchner more upside but huge holes/risks. Clausen was a sure thing from day 1. knew how to play football, good arm, insane accurate, could work within pocket. Just was sooooooo slow, and lacked elite arm and size.

I'm concerned about buchners throwing motion/accuracy. But he is more athletic, stronger, similar size.
 
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Buchner more upside but huge holes/risks. Clausen was a sure thing from day 1. knew how to play football, good arm, insane accurate, could work within pocket. Just was sooooooo slow, and lacked elite arm and size.

I'm concerned about buchners throwing motion/accuracy. But he is more athletic, stronger, similar size.
Agree with this pretty much.
 
Who had more upside? Who had more talent? I know Clausen was #1 overall, but he was kind of a bust as far as his pro career and he certainly was not the best quarterback in the class that year. A guy like Patrick Mahomes can be low ranked and end up the greatest by far in his class. Anyone with knowledge of the two have any thoughts on their respective upsides and the major differences between them? It seemed Clausen had a monster arm and incredible accuracy. But there was something off in his game that kept him from excelling.
You always know what you get when someone brings up a players pro career in an attempt to attack him or downgrade him.

Clausen I think probably did about as good as he could have been expected to do considering the situation he was in.
 
Clausen was very very good and accurate. He was a warrior. I mean go look at some of the games he played . I always remember seeing him take many hits only to get up and keep on playing. Too soon to tell with Buchner. I hope he is as good if not better than Clausen.
 
Buchner more upside but huge holes/risks. Clausen was a sure thing from day 1. knew how to play football, good arm, insane accurate, could work within pocket. Just was sooooooo slow, and lacked elite arm and size.

I'm concerned about buchners throwing motion/accuracy. But he is more athletic, stronger, similar size.
Yeah, the side arm crap looks ridiculous. I’m not sure who told him that’s cool. I’m surprised he’s not getting reamed by BK for throwing that way.
 
On this team with this talent around him? If Buechner is 90% of Jimmy, he’s gonna be a good one.

But he’s only played limited HS in much lesser league than Jimmy, so he has done nothing to earn this comparison...
 
Always thought Clausen was way overrated given his " status ". Nothing special in my book. I'd take guys like Quinn, Mirer and Beuerlein over him in a heartbeat.

Jimmy threw a nice, catchable ball and was extremely accurate on the short to intermediate throws. He also showed a natural ability to fit the ball into some tight windows. But he didn't possess a strong arm, at least from what I saw. His limited mobility on some teams with average/below average offensive lines meant he spent a lot of time on his backside, and he couldn't scramble to make plays like Ian Book was able to do. In my book I wouldn't describe Clausen as "way overrated," but I would agree that the hype that he came with didn't quite match up to what we saw on the field. Nice QB, but not a great one.
 
I just don't understand why everything comes back to Clausen. The guy could not have been more of a colossal bust in every way. And he had everything handed to him. The JC years were a disaster, an unmitigated disaster. That much is undeniably true, though he did have good stats his last season.

And if you want to look back to yesteryear, to pine for some QB that we wish we could have today, why not invoke the name of BQ? He's vastly superior to JC and his name is rarely mentioned. His college career certainly was. But it's always the cult of Clausen. Brady Quinn is the pride of ND, and you couldn't ask for anything more as a player and representative of the program. Though personally I'll take Ian Book.
 
Clausen was very very good and accurate. He was a warrior. I mean go look at some of the games he played . I always remember seeing him take many hits only to get up and keep on playing. Too soon to tell with Buchner. I hope he is as good if not better than Clausen.
I remember the Michigan game, when the offensive line collapsed and I believe four Michigan defensive lineman pummeled him? He took the hits. And his arm was pretty damn good
 
I just don't understand why everything comes back to Clausen. The guy could not have been more of a colossal bust in every way. And he had everything handed to him. The JC years were a disaster, an unmitigated disaster. That much is undeniably true, though he did have good stats his last season.

And if you want to look back to yesteryear, to pine for some QB that we wish we could have today, why not invoke the name of BQ? He's vastly superior to JC and his name is rarely mentioned. His college career certainly was. But it's always the cult of Clausen. Brady Quinn is the pride of ND, and you couldn't ask for anything more as a player and representative of the program. Though personally I'll take Ian Book.
Everything handed to him? Just proves you know diddly squat.
 
Everything handed to him? Just proves you know diddly squat.
All I meant by that is he was pretty much handed the starting job. By week 2 of his true freshman year. And it was downhill from there.

I just don't know why fans long for JC so much, it makes no sense to me. I try to block those years out of my memory as a fan. Golden Tate was the big highlight of that stretch.
 
All I meant by that is he was pretty much handed the starting job. By week 2 of his true freshman year. And it was downhill from there.

I just don't know why fans long for JC so much, it makes no sense to me. I try to block those years out of my memory as a fan. Golden Tate was the big highlight of that stretch.
So of course you place all your blame on Clausen. Typical internet so called expert.
 
So of course you place all your blame on Clausen. Typical internet so called expert.
Why wouldn't you though? What is it about Jimmy frickin' Clausen that makes you run to his defense? It certainly wasn't all the good memories or associations, because as far as I can see there were none. And as far as his vaunted great talent, where's the evidence, where's the successful NFL career that some transcendent prodigy would have enjoyed even if his college career wasn't perfect? Like I said he had every advantage - including as a collegian - and if nothing else Charlie Weis would be the perfect coach to prepare him for the NFL. And yet bupkus. I don't even need to mention what a compellingly unappealing guy he was.

So sure, he had some ability, He could throw a nice seam route or whatever with confidence. But this thing where JC is reminisced upon as some mythic figure... wtf???
 
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My favorite was BQ. I’m not comparing him to BQ because I don’t expect him to be that good. I compared to Clausen because I thought he was lesser than BQ and is a similar sized Cali kid.
 
I do think it’s kind of sad that BQ is our best quarterback dating back to my lifetime. ND needs to recruit and develop better at this position. We are due for a legit qb that will go on to have a great nfl career. We need that difference maker. I was happy with book. I think we will all see how big his loss was this season, but I’m ready for a Trevor Lawrence, Andrew Luck.
 
I do think it’s kind of sad that BQ is our best quarterback dating back to my lifetime. ND needs to recruit and develop better at this position. We are due for a legit qb that will go on to have a great nfl career. We need that difference maker. I was happy with book. I think we will all see how big his loss was this season, but I’m ready for a Trevor Lawrence, Andrew Luck.
I can't argue with that, not one word of it. It would be very cool to have a legit star QB who checks all the boxes.

I'm not sure Buchner's quite that guy, but he looks pretty good, and he's the closest we're going to get in the remaining Kelly years, if nothing else. Though I think Angeli could be a sleeper possibility. He's got the classic size and tools. We'll see if he's good enough.
 
Why wouldn't you though? What is it about Jimmy frickin' Clausen that makes you run to his defense? It certainly wasn't all the good memories or associations, because as far as I can see there were none. And as far as his vaunted great talent, where's the evidence, where's the successful NFL career that some transcendent prodigy would have enjoyed even if his college career wasn't perfect? Like I said he had every advantage - including as a collegian - and if nothing else Charlie Weis would be the perfect coach to prepare him for the NFL. And yet bupkus. I don't even need to mention what a compellingly unappealing guy he was.

So sure, he had some ability, He could throw a nice seam route or whatever with confidence. But this thing where JC is reminisced upon as some mythic figure... wtf???

I probably don't disagree greatly with your take on JC's career, but when you take shots at him on a personal level--e.g., calling him "a compelling unappealing guy"--that is where I part company with you. When you are 18 or 19 years old and are dubbed in a Sports Illustrated article as "The Kid With The Golden Arm," maybe those kind of accolades go to your head. Did Clausen do some immature things? Certainly. But how many of us can look back to when we were 19 or 20 and say we didn't do some stupid things? I'd like to hope he has grown up and matured a little bit since then. I expect his rather pedestrian professional career has probably taught him some humility. Isn't learning who we are part of what the journey of life is all about?

At the end of the day Jimmy Clausen didn't live up to the hype that accompanied his enrollment at ND, but that hardly is a reason to vilify him. Personally, I try to respect any kid that has strapped on a gold helmet and played for ND. They go out there for a dozen or so Saturday afternoons every fall and play their guts out for ND. That is good enough for me, even if they don't go on to HOF careers in the NFL.
 
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I probably don't disagree greatly with your take on JC's career, but when you take shots at him on a personal level--e.g., calling him "a compelling unappealing guy"--that is where I part company with you. When you are 18 or 19 years old and are dubbed in a Sports Illustrated article as "The Kid With The Golden Arm," maybe those kind of accolades go to your head. Did Clausen do some immature things? Certainly. But how many of us can look back to when we were 19 or 20 and say we didn't do some stupid things? I'd like to hope he has grown up and matured a little bit since then. I expect his rather pedestrian professional career has probably taught him some humility. Isn't learning who we are part of what the journey of life is all about?

At the end of the day Jimmy Clausen didn't live up to the hype that accompanied his enrollment at ND, but that hardly is a reason to vilify him. Personally, I try to respect any kid that has strapped on a gold helmet and played for ND. They go out there for a dozen or so Saturday afternoons every fall and play their guts out for ND. That is good enough for me, even if they don't go on to HOF careers in the NFL.
He was a shockingly 'uncompelling' guy. Personal shot or not. ND journalists working at the time commented on it! That it was almost as if he were autistic or something. He was that personally awkward. Obviously he was never going to be a charismatic or charming figure and you could see that from a mile away. But it was even worse than feared when he got to ND and people were interacting with him on a regular basis.

I mean, sure, I guess.... it is true that people who are immature eventually mature, but why does it have to be ND's problem? I don't resent JC on some deep level, he never wronged me personally. Nor was he much of a prima donna. And I would imagine he's doing just fine living regular life. But everything about his time at ND with respect to the football program, and with respect to him on a personal level for lack of a better term, is something I could genuinely say I wish ND had not had to go through. I personally did not want him to commit to ND at the time, and was worried it might not go well... and it didn't! Way worse than I ever anticipated. The one good thing about it, and the ensuing overnight collapse of the Charlie Weis regime is we got BK! So I'm happy about that. The football gods eventually rewarded us for our suffering....

So it's a mystery why he is so weirdly beloved by so many ND fans, while Ian Book is regarded with casual contempt in comparison. I have my theories on that which I will keep to myself.
 
Philip Rivers did pretty good in college and pros with same delivery.
He performed poorly at elite 11 and the analysts said the reason why was his new sidearm motion that he picked up somewhere between junior and senior seasons.
 
Yes
He was a shockingly 'uncompelling' guy. Personal shot or not. ND journalists working at the time commented on it! That it was almost as if he were autistic or something. He was that personally awkward. Obviously he was never going to be a charismatic or charming figure and you could see that from a mile away. But it was even worse than feared when he got to ND and people were interacting with him on a regular basis.

I mean, sure, I guess.... it is true that people who are immature eventually mature, but why does it have to be ND's problem? I don't resent JC on some deep level, he never wronged me personally. Nor was he much of a prima donna. And I would imagine he's doing just fine living regular life. But everything about his time at ND with respect to the football program, and with respect to him on a personal level for lack of a better term, is something I could genuinely say I wish ND had not had to go through. I personally did not want him to commit to ND at the time, and was worried it might not go well... and it didn't! Way worse than I ever anticipated. The one good thing about it, and the ensuing overnight collapse of the Charlie Weis regime is we got BK! So I'm happy about that. The football gods eventually rewarded us for our suffering....

So it's a mystery why he is so weirdly beloved by so many ND fans, while Ian Book is regarded with casual contempt in comparison. I have my theories on that which I will keep to myself.
Yes, you've your reasons, I'm sure. But then, in terms of storytelling, you've also just set the hook. A sentence like that at the end of a section or chapter of a story should be followed with what the hook has been set FOR.

By setting the hook in the first place, you're already half way to outing your explanation. And since the stories here are always so much more interesting than the dialectics, and since you're equipped to handle either, why not let us in on your theory?
 
He performed poorly at elite 11 and the analysts said the reason why was his new sidearm motion that he picked up somewhere between junior and senior seasons.
I am not sure what I am missing but what sidearm motion???

I have watched all of Buchner’s Spring film and do not see a sidearm.

Who reported that?
I found this from the Elite 11 breakdown


Watching his film from the Spring he seems to have corrected that. Who knows what was going on at the camp. He is on campus now and his release looks fine.
 
Throwing sidearm style is what the cool Brett Favre wanna be QBs try to do. Or Aaron Rodgers. And they want to be like those guys. Not every throw, not your baseline mechanics. But when you need to you can sling it side arm if the situation dictates, and that's what the way the hip QBs do it, the ones with next level arm talent.

Only the dork QBs have to have textbook mechanics on every throw. That's more like Tom Brady. Good, proper, predictable mechanics and form with every throw. Whereas if you're cool like Aaron Rodgers you can throw sidearm if you need to. I personally prefer Aaron Rodgers. But he's got the skills to pay the bills. If I was a young phenom like Buchner I would definitely be looking up to someone like Aaron Rodgers, he would be me frickin' idol. Then again, you got to be good enough.
 
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Having a sidearm motion can really injure the QBs arm. If that motion is his style.

Kelly just said Buchner is throwing good and his motion is very fluid.
 
Having a sidearm motion can really injure the QBs arm. If that motion is his style.

Kelly just said Buchner is throwing good and his motion is very fluid.
Dude, Buchner is totally like a young Aaron Rodgers. I'm not a QB guru so don't quote me on that, but to the untrained eye, hell yeah.... He's about the same size, he's cool and smooth and talented, and totally looks like someone of the Aaron Rodgers school. Which is understandable, any young aspiring QB would hopefully want to emulate AR. Especially if you seem to have similar traits.

But of course AR has a pretty damn strong arm. He's the sort of like the ultimate arm-talent QB, as well as a cool dude/QB in general. Still, that's exactly why Buchner should emulate him. I'm an AR fan and admirer as you can tell.
 
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I am not sure what I am missing but what sidearm motion???

I have watched all of Buchner’s Spring film and do not see a sidearm.

Who reported that?
I found this from the Elite 11 breakdown


Watching his film from the Spring he seems to have corrected that. Who knows what was going on at the camp. He is on campus now and his release looks fine.
It's not dennis ecklersley side arm but if you watch videos of him throwing more than 5 yards he definitely doesn't get his arm back into the "slot" and comes through a little from the side more so than "slot" or over the top
 
Clausen was GREAT! But Buchner is GREATER ! The only difference I can make out.
 
And for all you Clausen fans.....


It's not so much an indictment of Clausen as an explanation of his struggles. He never had the benefit of a defense like Notre Dame fields currently. The offensive line also wasn't churning out NFL starters.

With a good defense and a halfway decent run game Clausen's junior stats would have been even better and their record would have been vastly different.

That said, he was incredibly immobile, Rees-like. He didn't have good size. I thought his accuracy would keep him around the league, but getting drafted to a terrible Carolina team didn't help. Brady and Kizer to the Browns was similar. It took a Cam Newton to drag that offense forward.

On a side note, Jonas Gray was on that team. There's a dude that Weis and Kelly mishandled. He was a bowling ball with speed.
 
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It's not so much an indictment of Clausen as an explanation of his struggles. He never had the benefit of a defense like Notre Dame fields currently. The offensive line also wasn't churning out NFL starters.

With a good defense and a halfway decent run game Clausen's junior stats would have been even better and their record would have been vastly different.

That said, he was incredibly immobile, Rees-like. He didn't have good size. I thought his accuracy would keep him around the league, but getting drafted to a terrible Carolina team didn't help. Brady and Kizer to the Browns was similar. It took a Cam Newton to drag that offense forward.

On a side note, Jonas Gray was on that team. There's a dude that Weis and Kelly mishandled. He was a bowling ball with speed.
I'm not much of a Clausen fan, and have amply expressed my befuddlement, even my frustration at why he remains so highly regarded. But he did have a good junior year, and seemingly was beginning to play up to his purported abilities, and living up to the hype more or less. Then we suddenly lost four straight to end his jr season, and that was it for Weis. And hello BK!

I guess that was just bad luck or something. They could have won those games, and they were on an upward trajectory at 6-2. And boom! they lose four straight including to Navy and UConn. If that team managed to win three out of those last four, Weis doesn't get fired, JC probably stays for his Sr season, and who the hell knows where ND football is today.

One thing many ND fans resent is any suggestion that it was Clausen that brought Weis down. Certainly not, it was Weis, and by extension the whole football program that let JC down. What a hideous thought. That ND football, alma mater of Knute Rockne, the greatest franchise in CFB history and probably all of American sport... and they let Jimmy Clausen down. Say it ain't so!
 
One thing many ND fans resent is any suggestion that it was Clausen that brought Weis down. Certainly not, it was Weis, and by extension the whole football program that let JC down. What a hideous thought. That ND football, alma mater of Knute Rockne, the greatest franchise in CFB history and probably all of American sport... and they let Jimmy Clausen down. Say it ain't so!

I don't disagree with that at all. That team had Tate, Floyd, and Rudolph. I think Floyd broke his collar bone that year, but there were weapons. Some of them were young.

I think after he realized the defense was totally bungled Weis went to relying on Clausen to Tate improvisation a lot. The defense was awful. I think one of the big knocks on Tate early on in the NFL was not knowing how to run actual routes for shit (and a weakness for maple bars).

Willingham's allergy to recruiting definitely caught up to Weis. His early success and Super Bowl rings got to him, and his assistant hires were bad.

Clausen threw for 3700 yards, 28 tds and 4 ints that year, and completed 68% of his passes. Weis let them down as a head coach.
 
I don't disagree with that at all. That team had Tate, Floyd, and Rudolph. I think Floyd broke his collar bone that year, but there were weapons. Some of them were young.

I think after he realized the defense was totally bungled Weis went to relying on Clausen to Tate improvisation a lot. The defense was awful. I think one of the big knocks on Tate early on in the NFL was not knowing how to run actual routes for shit (and a weakness for maple bars).

Willingham's allergy to recruiting definitely caught up to Weis. His early success and Super Bowl rings got to him, and his assistant hires were bad.

Clausen threw for 3700 yards, 28 tds and 4 ints that year, and completed 68% of his passes. Weis let them down as a head coach.
That's the stuff right there. That's exactly what i'm talking about. Jimmy Clausen the martyr. Poor, poor Jimmy Clausen.....

And of course JC splits town once his protector was gone. But it was for the best. Wipe the slate clean....
 
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