Can ND Reach the Next Level? The ND Ultimate Quiz

[theskibro]

ok, I don’t claim to have the answers but I have some questions that others on this board are encouraged to respond to -

The questions have direct impact on whether ND can compete at the highest level next season and seasons to come.

1. Book versus Phil-
Can Phil win the starting job this Fall? I say no because based on history, Kelly would never start Phil over the incumbent. Ie; Zaire/Kizer, Golson/Rees, Wimbush/ Book. Maybe by game 3 but I think Book is solid in Kelly’s head. That is a big minus for us unless Book can develop the long ball Doubtful

2. Would Tee Higgins or Justyn Ross be accepted to ND?
This is speculation but I think we miss out on roughly 80 per cent of 4-5 star recruits due to academics. Either they don’t qualify or they want basket weaving

3. Can we raise the performance of our O Line?
This speaks to recruiting and development. I think our strength program is fine but is Quinn the guy who can develop and recruit?

4. The Game Changer
What is the biggest reason we would not attract a top QB or Speed Receiver or elite back? A top D lineman?
Is it the small pool of athletes who value the ND culture and experience? Ie- For every Clausen, Rudolph, Quenton Nelson - there are many more who prefer a more fun and easier academic environment

5. Coaching
Is Kelly able to win the big games? This has yet to be proven. He has won more big games recently than he had but his game planning remains suspect. Can the right coach make the difference at collegiate level and minimize the liability of the first 4 questions I raised?

I see these as the 5 questions that will define our success next year and years to come

Thoughts?

 

[echowaker]

as far as #2 an #4 goes it's so true. the vast majority of the top level kids have their eyes on the NFL in the shortest time possible with the path of least resistance academically. That's not ND and I hope it never is.

 

[theskibro]

as far as #2 an #4 goes it's so true. the vast majority of the top level kids have their eyes on the NFL in the shortest time possible with the path of least resistance academically. That's not ND and I hope it never is.

Yes but.
The majority of elite kids choose the easy quick path. But we do get 2 things - the small group of elites who like ND and we DO NOT GET the small group of elites who want to come to ND and are rejected

This in my opinion, is bs and needs to change. We need the admissions of the Vinny Cerrato Days. We can’t lose out on the Randy Mosses, and numerous other kids who want a chance to succeed and mature at a college that will challenge them

We do not give them that chance and that is bs and contrary to the - golden goose that is ND Football and contrary to doing the right thing by giving a small number of these kids a chance

 

[echowaker]

Yes but.
The majority of elite kids choose the easy quick path. But we do get 2 things - the small group of elites who like ND and we DO NOT GET the small group of elites who want to come to ND and are rejected

This in my opinion, is bs and needs to change. We need the admissions of the Vinny Cerrato Days. We can’t lose out on the Randy Mosses, and numerous other kids who want a chance to succeed and mature at a college that will challenge them

We do not give them that chance and that is bs and contrary to the - golden goose that is ND Football and contrary to doing the right thing by giving a small number of these kids a chance

until there is a change in the administration both in personnel and philosophy I don't see it changing anytime soon. I have the utmost respect for ND and it goes well beyond football. Would i like to see championships every year in every sport ? sure, but the athletics are just one part of it for me.

 

[twalsh]

This in my opinion, is bs and needs to change. We need the admissions of the Vinny Cerrato Days. We can’t lose out on the Randy Mosses, and numerous other kids who want a chance to succeed and mature at a college that will challenge them

We do not give them that chance and that is bs and contrary to the - golden goose that is ND Football and contrary to doing the right thing by giving a small number of these kids a chance

The number of “chances” is finite. 25 per year, 85 total. So, for every kid who we give a chance, there’s another kid who loses out on his chance. So I think the “right thing” concept is total crap.

Everytime someone says, why couldn’t we make an exception for so and so kid who really wanted to go to ND, they forget the fact that one of the kids we now have would have lost his opportunity, for every exception made.

 

[theskibro]

The number of “chances” is finite. 25 per year, 85 total. So, for every kid who we give a chance, there’s another kid who loses out on his chance. So I think the “right thing” concept is total crap.

Everyone time someone says, why couldn’t we make an exception for so and so kid who really wanted to go to ND, they forget the fact that one of the kids we now have would have lost his opportunity, for every exception made.

Yeah but that one kid who lost to a marginal grade kid is a 3-4 star and the upside to the school is potentially huge in revenue It is impossible to win without these concessions.
If ND chooses to maintain that path, it is agreeing to never winning again in football and those banners and old championships will begin to work against us more than help us

30 plus years since last one is light years in the minds of today’s market I am just saying and it is fact —. If we are unable to get the revenue deals we have in the past, then you will see the Admin make admission exceptions

It’s not important if that ever happens or not. What is important is that if it did happen, we would make exceptions to be competitive. You know that’s true. And so does everyone else

And that is hypocritical, wrong and bs

So we can put our heads up our ass and say we will never change, we love who we are, etc.

It’s crap. Football gave this school the opportunity to become the great University it is and to ignore that and is only fooling ourselves

 

[Telx1]

ok, I don’t claim to have the answers but I have some questions that others on this board are encouraged to respond to -

The questions have direct impact on whether ND can compete at the highest level next season and seasons to come.

1. Book versus Phil-
Can Phil win the starting job this Fall? I say no because based on history, Kelly would never start Phil over the incumbent. Ie; Zaire/Kizer, Golson/Rees, Wimbush/ Book. Maybe by game 3 but I think Book is solid in Kelly’s head. That is a big minus for us unless Book can develop the long ball Doubtful

2. Would Tee Higgins or Justyn Ross be accepted to ND?
This is speculation but I think we miss out on roughly 80 per cent of 4-5 star recruits due to academics. Either they don’t qualify or they want basket weaving

3. Can we raise the performance of our O Line?
This speaks to recruiting and development. I think our strength program is fine but is Quinn the guy who can develop and recruit?

4. The Game Changer
What is the biggest reason we would not attract a top QB or Speed Receiver or elite back? A top D lineman?
Is it the small pool of athletes who value the ND culture and experience? Ie- For every Clausen, Rudolph, Quenton Nelson - there are many more who prefer a more fun and easier academic environment

5. Coaching
Is Kelly able to win the big games? This has yet to be proven. He has won more big games recently than he had but his game planning remains suspect. Can the right coach make the difference at collegiate level and minimize the liability of the first 4 questions I raised?

I see these as the 5 questions that will define our success next year and years to come

Thoughts?

Good questions Ski...and answers are not apparent for a couple, at least in my opinion.

1. Kelly seems to value experience over potential. I don’t think we go 12-0 last season without Book, but I don’t think Book can carry this team to the next level. His inability to hit long throws is a critical flaw, and his tendency to abandon the pocket prematurely when there is pressure is another. Have no idea if Phil is the answer, but I really hope he is given the opportunity to be the answer.

3. I’ve been really impressed with Quinn’s recruiting, and the incoming OL haul is outstanding. I thought the OL was a disappointment this past season, recognizing we lost two outstanding players to the NFL, and our best OL to injury. Still, Hainsey got off to a rough start with an ankle issue, Mustipher seemed wildly inconsistent, and Kraemer clearly regressed until he was benched late in the season. We need to see two things from Quinn this year: Early decision on who our best five are and with assigned positions, a clear level of improvement at literally every OL position that shows significant player development. Absent this, I’ll be on IIO’s bandwagon calling for his replacement.

4. I personally believe we can and should attract game changer talent, and I think this goes to our individual recruiting capabilities first and foremost. Our most glaring deficit in this regard has been the R.B. position since Denson arrived. He did a nice job developing our running backs, but he failed miserably in recruiting high potential backs who have the talent to be game changers. A team like ND should have a Dexter Williams recruit every year. We have an opportunity to correct this and get a great R.B. recruiter, and Kelly needs to hit a homerun here with his next Hire.
Frankly, I have no idea if Rees will prove to be a great recruiter, or developer of talent, but we clearly have a history of recruiting apparent high quality QB talent, only to have them largely disappoint. I’m hoping Phil proves to be a difference maker, and I feel we have the kind of talent at receiver that can be outstanding if we have an outstanding QB. My way of saying we don’t lack receiver talent or possible game changers at this position.

5. I think Long and Lea will be much better coordinators from our Clemson game experience, but I continue to question Kelly’s Trust the Process approach to big games. He obviously feels it is important to keep emotions in check and works to avoid the team getting too high or two low, etc... and I think this calm steady professional approach works to our disadvantage when we’re on the big stage, playing teams that come out sky high and quickly gain the momentum. Kelly also seems to play the percentages, which usually translates to a conservative game plan, and here again, I think we need to come into these games with the attitude of pulling out all stops, etc... Hard to believe we had no Wimbush packages that we used for the Clemson game, and hard to believe we kept our young speed receivers sitting on the bench. Just as we saw Kelly embrace change after a failed season, I’m hoping we see Kelly changes in these areas as well.

Sorry for the damn long post...just wanted to share my perspective on a few of your questions.

 

[twalsh]

If we are unable to get the revenue deals we have in the past, then you will see the Admin make admission exceptions

Such as?

 

[d1042]

On 2 occasions ND has demonstrated the application of the Peter principle.

 

[Patriot82]

Kids are judged by their grades in high school as to their ability. When we look at their athletic ability we judge by the ability to either coach them up or see them improve as they further develop physically.

When I was in high school I just played sports and somehow found my way through. In college I was no honor roll student, but made it through okay. Some of the guys not accepted by Notre Dame could make the grade if given the chance. Think of the hardships some have gone through to get where they are now - do they deserve a chance?

All the talk of Notre Dame lowering their standards by letting a few 5 star guys in who may need their help is nonsense. Four or five guys are going to diminish the scholastic reputation? Notre Dame has no regular non-sports students not make the grade?

 

[Patriot82]

Getting some five star guys would amount to less than 1% of the student body so where's the point here?

 

[theskibro]

Good questions Ski...and answers are not apparent for a couple, at least in my opinion.

1. Kelly seems to value experience over potential. I don’t think we go 12-0 last season without Book, but I don’t think Book can carry this team to the next level. His inability to hit long throws is a critical flaw, and his tendency to abandon the pocket prematurely when there is pressure is another. Have no idea if Phil is the answer, but I really hope he is given the opportunity to be the answer.

3. I’ve been really impressed with Quinn’s recruiting, and the incoming OL haul is outstanding. I thought the OL was a disappointment this past season, recognizing we lost two outstanding players to the NFL, and our best OL to injury. Still, Hainsey got off to a rough start with an ankle issue, Mustipher seemed wildly inconsistent, and Kraemer clearly regressed until he was benched late in the season. We need to see two things from Quinn this year: Early decision on who our best five are and with assigned positions, a clear level of improvement at literally every OL position that shows significant player development. Absent this, I’ll be on IIO’s bandwagon calling for his replacement.

4. I personally believe we can and should attract game changer talent, and I think this goes to our individual recruiting capabilities first and foremost. Our most glaring deficit in this regard has been the R.B. position since Denson arrived. He did a nice job developing our running backs, but he failed miserably in recruiting high potential backs who have the talent to be game changers. A team like ND should have a Dexter Williams recruit every year. We have an opportunity to correct this and get a great R.B. recruiter, and Kelly needs to hit a homerun here with his next Hire.
Frankly, I have no idea if Rees will prove to be a great recruiter, or developer of talent, but we clearly have a history of recruiting apparent high quality QB talent, only to have them largely disappoint. I’m hoping Phil proves to be a difference maker, and I feel we have the kind of talent at receiver that can be outstanding if we have an outstanding QB. My way of saying we don’t lack receiver talent or possible game changers at this position.

5. I think Long and Lea will be much better coordinators from our Clemson game experience, but I continue to question Kelly’s Trust the Process approach to big games. He obviously feels it is important to keep emotions in check and works to avoid the team getting too high or two low, etc... and I think this calm steady professional approach works to our disadvantage when we’re on the big stage, playing teams that come out sky high and quickly gain the momentum. Kelly also seems to play the percentages, which usually translates to a conservative game plan, and here again, I think we need to come into these games with the attitude of pulling out all stops, etc... Hard to believe we had no Wimbush packages that we used for the Clemson game, and hard to believe we kept our young speed receivers sitting on the bench. Just as we saw Kelly embrace change after a failed season, I’m hoping we see Kelly changes in these areas as well.

Sorry for the damn long post...just wanted to share my perspective on a few of your questions.

TelX
Great thoughts from a great mind. Agree as always with everything you drink n eat. Money.
U my straight n narrow. U my antidote for Ski stupidity

 

[theskibro]

Such as?

Such as Under Armour and NBC. Such as Alumni or fiends who stop donating. I think we continue getting these deals simply because we are ND and that means we have a winning program that maintains the legacy. However, I pose the hypothetical which is what if we did not get the revenue deals? What if we start to become a consistent top 20 program and our revenue drops?

Then without doubt we would change our admin policy

Now it’s eady to say “but we don’t have to, we are competitive”. I say what if? What if means do we settle and not be true —. Or do we do what we would surely do if pressed? I say if we are being true to ourselves, we would crater and accept marginal kids to get to next level. So why not do some of that now?

 

[theskibro]

Getting some five star guys would amount to less than 1% of the student body so where's the point here?

Exactly. But the upside to helping them succeed academically and our team improve could be huge

 

[twalsh]

Such as Under Armour and NBC. Such as Alumni or fiends who stop donating. I think we continue getting these deals simply because we are ND and that means we have a winning program that maintains the legacy. However, I pose the hypothetical which is what if we did not get the revenue deals? What if we start to become a consistent top 20 program and our revenue drops?

Then without doubt we would change our admin policy

Now it’s eady to say “but we don’t have to, we are competitive”. I say what if? What if means do we settle and not be true —. Or do we do what we would surely do if pressed? I say if we are being true to ourselves, we would crater and accept marginal kids to get to next level. So why not do some of that now?

The Under Armor deal was inked decades after our last national championship, and the NBC contract has been renewed multiple times, including long after 1988. So I think those are pretty unrealistic hypotheticals. Not to mention that Under Armor, as does Nike and Adidas, pays many schools a lot of money without those schools winning national championships. I think that ND would need to become non-competitive for an extended period of time before either of those were at risk. And given recent success, that seems to be highly unlikely.

As to your hypothesis that we'd make academic exceptions to maintain a football revenue stream, that's subject to debate.

 

[88ND]

ok, I don’t claim to have the answers but I have some questions that others on this board are encouraged to respond to -

The questions have direct impact on whether ND can compete at the highest level next season and seasons to come.

1. Book versus Phil-
Can Phil win the starting job this Fall? I say no because based on history, Kelly would never start Phil over the incumbent. Ie; Zaire/Kizer, Golson/Rees, Wimbush/ Book. Maybe by game 3 but I think Book is solid in Kelly’s head. That is a big minus for us unless Book can develop the long ball Doubtful

2. Would Tee Higgins or Justyn Ross be accepted to ND?
This is speculation but I think we miss out on roughly 80 per cent of 4-5 star recruits due to academics. Either they don’t qualify or they want basket weaving

3. Can we raise the performance of our O Line?
This speaks to recruiting and development. I think our strength program is fine but is Quinn the guy who can develop and recruit?

4. The Game Changer
What is the biggest reason we would not attract a top QB or Speed Receiver or elite back? A top D lineman?
Is it the small pool of athletes who value the ND culture and experience? Ie- For every Clausen, Rudolph, Quenton Nelson - there are many more who prefer a more fun and easier academic environment

5. Coaching
Is Kelly able to win the big games? This has yet to be proven. He has won more big games recently than he had but his game planning remains suspect. Can the right coach make the difference at collegiate level and minimize the liability of the first 4 questions I raised?

I see these as the 5 questions that will define our success next year and years to come

Thoughts?

#1
Kelly will be married to Book now unless something unfortunate happens. So we won't see Phil unless BK watches the Clemson tape repeatedly and sees what down field passing can do.

#2 this is the unknown but there is no way 80 percent of playmakers can't get into ND. That's 8 of every ten kids. Using an equal scale that leaves us 20% of players in all positions to choose from? Divided up between Northwestern, Stanford, Ivy League schools etc etc.

With common core running rampant the last several years the govt wants kids to score better even if it means they're not really smarter.

I'd say scores across the board are better today than thirty years ago.

#4 and #5 Tie together

Kids love winning. Kelly does the program zero favors by getting embarrassed in the biggest of games.
It's nothing you can sell to a potential recruit.

Being more competitive in those games helps recruiting.
Get a five star or two...and others follow suit. Talent likes to play with talent.

 

[echowaker]

Kids are judged by their grades in high school as to their ability. When we look at their athletic ability we judge by the ability to either coach them up or see them improve as they further develop physically.

When I was in high school I just played sports and somehow found my way through. In college I was no honor roll student, but made it through okay. Some of the guys not accepted by Notre Dame could make the grade if given the chance. Think of the hardships some have gone through to get where they are now - do they deserve a chance?

All the talk of Notre Dame lowering their standards by letting a few 5 star guys in who may need their help is nonsense. Four or five guys are going to diminish the scholastic reputation? Notre Dame has no regular non-sports students not make the grade?

You're assuming they want to attend ND. Being in South Bend is a disadvantage also.

 

[TDIrish27]

#1
Kelly will be married to Book now unless something unfortunate happens. So we won't see Phil unless BK watches the Clemson tape repeatedly and sees what down field passing can do.

#2 this is the unknown but there is no way 80 percent of playmakers can't get into ND. That's 8 of every ten kids. Using an equal scale that leaves us 20% of players in all positions to choose from? Divided up between Northwestern, Stanford, Ivy League schools etc etc.

With common core running rampant the last several years the govt wants kids to score better even if it means they're not really smarter.

I'd say scores across the board are better today than thirty years ago.

#4 and #5 Tie together

Kids love winning. Kelly does the program zero favors by getting embarrassed in the biggest of games.
It's nothing you can sell to a potential recruit.

Being more competitive in those games helps recruiting.
Get a five star or two...and others follow suit. Talent likes to play with talent.

Did Urban do guys favors with his annual embarassments ?

Harbaugh ?

 

[echowaker]

#1
Kelly will be married to Book now unless something unfortunate happens. So we won't see Phil unless BK watches the Clemson tape repeatedly and sees what down field passing can do.

#2 this is the unknown but there is no way 80 percent of playmakers can't get into ND. That's 8 of every ten kids. Using an equal scale that leaves us 20% of players in all positions to choose from? Divided up between Northwestern, Stanford, Ivy League schools etc etc.

With common core running rampant the last several years the govt wants kids to score better even if it means they're not really smarter.

I'd say scores across the board are better today than thirty years ago.

#4 and #5 Tie together

Kids love winning. Kelly does the program zero favors by getting embarrassed in the biggest of games.
It's nothing you can sell to a potential recruit.

Being more competitive in those games helps recruiting.
Get a five star or two...and others follow suit. Talent likes to play with talent.

big difference between getting in and wanting to get in.

 

[Telx1]

Such as Under Armour and NBC. Such as Alumni or fiends who stop donating. I think we continue getting these deals simply because we are ND and that means we have a winning program that maintains the legacy. However, I pose the hypothetical which is what if we did not get the revenue deals? What if we start to become a consistent top 20 program and our revenue drops?

Then without doubt we would change our admin policy

Now it’s eady to say “but we don’t have to, we are competitive”. I say what if? What if means do we settle and not be true —. Or do we do what we would surely do if pressed? I say if we are being true to ourselves, we would crater and accept marginal kids to get to next level. So why not do some of that now?

Morning Ski...I have one nagging fear about ND football, and that is a significant reduction in its so-called subway alums going forward, and the implications. My grandparents and parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins were hard core ND fans. Every other year when ND came to play USC, we had at least twenty of us together at the games, etc... and one year there were forty of us banded together in the USC rooting section. Fast forward to today, I’m 68 and me and my cousins are still hard core fans, but our sons and daughter for the most part aren’t. The ones that really follow college football tend to jump on the winner bandwagons, and ND is an afterthought. At some point, assuming this is somewhat Representative, ND will cease to be special and special deals like the ones you reference will cease, and revenue will decline from both donations and these outside sources of revenue. In this evolving environment, I think ND needs to be more than just relevant, ND needs to be a perennial power with legitimate NC aspirations, and changes need to be made now to make this a reality. Kelly has done a great job dragging the program and the facilities and game experience into today’s world of college football, but we need to take the next step; and there are many here who have recommended changes ranging from paying for elite coaches to relaxing academic workloads during the season to having a few exceptions to the admission standards each year, etc... all of which can be accomplished without sacrificing the values that makes ND special. I agree, the time for change is now.

 

[theskibro]

Morning Ski...I have one nagging fear about ND football, and that is a significant reduction in its so-called subway alums going forward, and the implications. My grandparents and parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins were hard core ND fans. Every other year when ND came to play USC, we had at least twenty of us together at the games, etc... and one year there were forty of us banded together in the USC rooting section. Fast forward to today, I’m 68 and me and my cousins are still hard core fans, but our sons and daughter for the most part aren’t. The ones that really follow college football tend to jump on the winner bandwagons, and ND is an afterthought. At some point, assuming this is somewhat Representative, ND will cease to be special and special deals like the ones you reference will cease, and revenue will decline from both donations and these outside sources of revenue. In this evolving environment, I think ND needs to be more than just relevant, ND needs to be a perennial power with legitimate NC aspirations, and changes need to be made now to make this a reality. Kelly has done a great job dragging the program and the facilities and game experience into today’s world of college football, but we need to take the next step; and there are many here who have recommended changes ranging from paying for elite coaches to relaxing academic workloads during the season to having a few exceptions to the admission standards each year, etc... all of which can be accomplished without sacrificing the values that makes ND special. I agree, the time for change is now.

TelX

You hit it on the sweet spot. The scenario you describe can apply to other situations outside of ND. Such as the real estate market. I have the same fears you describe happening to ND. I believe we are being foolhardy and not preparing for the future by maintaining our admissions policy that hurts us on the field and makes us non-competitive.

I see similar things unfolding in real estate. I ask myself - the current generation of young people don't care about accumulation, building wealth, buying homes, etc They live day to day. Who is going to be "the demand" that buys homes and keeps values growing? There could be a huge crash. I dunno.

I do know that ND is not being truthful by turning away young athletes who want to attend our school. It's anti- education philosophically an d it certainly hurts our football. Is it fair that a small group of marginally academic kids should get admission preference over high academic applicants? Yes. There needs to be balance to the student body and there is no denying the economic upside several elite athletes can bring to the football program. And the football program is the economic lifeblood of the school. No one with one brain cell should deny that.

 

[88ND]

Did Urban do guys favors with his annual embarassments ?

Harbaugh ?

You've some hate towards Urban? What the fukc does he have to do with a thread about ND going forward?

He won three titles at two different schools and was left out the playoffs in a couple controversial decisions.

 

[twalsh]

Morning Ski...I have one nagging fear about ND football, and that is a significant reduction in its so-called subway alums going forward, and the implications. My grandparents and parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins were hard core ND fans. Every other year when ND came to play USC, we had at least twenty of us together at the games, etc... and one year there were forty of us banded together in the USC rooting section. Fast forward to today, I’m 68 and me and my cousins are still hard core fans, but our sons and daughter for the most part aren’t. The ones that really follow college football tend to jump on the winner bandwagons, and ND is an afterthought. At some point, assuming this is somewhat Representative, ND will cease to be special and special deals like the ones you reference will cease, and revenue will decline from both donations and these outside sources of revenue. In this evolving environment, I think ND needs to be more than just relevant, ND needs to be a perennial power with legitimate NC aspirations, and changes need to be made now to make this a reality. Kelly has done a great job dragging the program and the facilities and game experience into today’s world of college football, but we need to take the next step; and there are many here who have recommended changes ranging from paying for elite coaches to relaxing academic workloads during the season to having a few exceptions to the admission standards each year, etc... all of which can be accomplished without sacrificing the values that makes ND special. I agree, the time for change is now.

Most definitely a big reduction in subway alums going forward into the future. But I don't believe it has much to do with ND winning or losing football games. The large generation of subway alums was made up mostly, not solely, of people who did not attend college. Contrast that to the current situation where many many more people go to college. People who go to college tend to establish their own allegiances, whether it be to their alma mater or the alma mater of a spouse or significant other. Add to that the role of television. People in their late 50s and older grew up in an era where there was one national TV broadcast on Saturday, and maybe the occasional double header with two national games. ND was in more of those games national TV games than any other school. A huge exposure advantage over other schools. Plus you had the Sunday morning replays that so many of us grew up with. On a typical Saturday today in the Atlanta market there are roughly 40 televised college football games, and that doesn't even count the ones streaming on the internet. I suspect that most other major cities (not in New England) are the same. This not only gives exposure to a huge number of schools on a weekly basis, but allows more people the chance to watch their alma maters play on TV every week. It also leads to more easy regional fandoms. A kid who grew up in upstate New York and went to school at RIT gets to watch Syracuse pretty much every week on TV. 50 years ago Syracuse might have been on once every few years. It's just a totally different national college football landscape than it was when most of our subway alum relationships started. Many many more schools with tremendous weekly exposure on TV and in the news.

 

[88ND]

TelX

You hit it on the sweet spot. The scenario you describe can apply to other situations outside of ND. Such as the real estate market. I have the same fears you describe happening to ND. I believe we are being foolhardy and not preparing for the future by maintaining our admissions policy that hurts us on the field and makes us non-competitive.

I see similar things unfolding in real estate. I ask myself - the current generation of young people don't care about accumulation, building wealth, buying homes, etc They live day to day. Who is going to be "the demand" that buys homes and keeps values growing? There could be a huge crash. I dunno.

I do know that ND is not being truthful by turning away young athletes who want to attend our school. It's anti- education philosophically an d it certainly hurts our football. Is it fair that a small group of marginally academic kids should get admission preference over high academic applicants? Yes. There needs to be balance to the student body and there is no denying the economic upside several elite athletes can bring to the football program. And the football program is the economic lifeblood of the school. No one with one brain cell should deny that.

Spot on.

Exclusively taking the polished diamonds and just polishing them some more is far less gratifying than taking the diamond in the rough and molding and building that young adult into the highly polished gem.

People will chime in real quick and say Stepherson, or Redfield....

I say so what. You won't get 100% graduation rate no matter what.

Every year there are kids that cant hack it for any school. The only ones you hear of are the better athletes. The average athletes nobody even knows if they've been dismissed but make no mistake every school gets some of those kids that cant do it. Just seldom hear about it.

If dismissed do we lose a scholarship? Nope.

Juco kids. WTF is wrong with them if they're now meeting the criteria?

We dare not let them in, why?

Someone better dare not say some extreme crazy example like an illiterate lineman from Last chance U.

Some kids scholastically don't start clicking until they are 19 or 20.

Too many lines in the sand drawn IMO to be highly competitive.

 

[88ND]

Most definitely a big reduction in subway alums going forward into the future. But I don't believe it has much to do with ND winning or losing football games. The large generation of subway alums was made up mostly, not solely, of people who did not attend college. Contrast that to the current situation where many many more people go to college. People who go to college tend to establish their own allegiances, whether it be to their alma mater or the alma mater of a spouse or significant other. Add to that the role of television. People in their late 50s and older grew up in an era where there was one national TV broadcast on Saturday, and maybe the occasional double header with two national games. ND was in more of those games national TV games than any other school. A huge exposure advantage over other schools. Plus you had the Sunday morning replays that so many of us grew up with. On a typical Saturday today in the Atlanta market there are roughly 40 televised college football games, and that doesn't even count the ones streaming on the internet. I suspect that most other major cities (not in New England) are the same. This not only gives exposure to a huge number of schools on a weekly basis, but allows more people the chance to watch their alma maters play on TV every week. It also leads to more easy regional fandoms. A kid who grew up in upstate New York and went to school at RIT gets to watch Syracuse pretty much every week on TV. 50 years ago Syracuse might have been on once every few years. It's just a totally different national college football landscape than it was when most of our subway alum relationships started. Many many more schools with tremendous weekly exposure on TV and in the news.

TV is a factor without question. Every Saturday there are only like 5 teams out of 100 plus that you can't see play.

Our NBC exclusive is nice but doesn't have the impact it once did. It still means something and it's better being on NBC exclusive than one of fifty schools on ESPN all the time.

Before we go complaining all the time about admissions I'd like to see a coach with some emotion and or cutting edge innovation.

 

[twalsh]

Before we go complaining all the time about admissions I'd like to see a coach with some emotion and or cutting edge innovation.

Wait a minute, remember when old "purple face" was supposedly way too emotional? Now he's not emotional enough?

 

[88ND]

Wait a minute, remember when old "purple face" was supposedly way too emotional? Now he's not emotional enough?

Whoa...i never said a word about that. Matter of fact I was sounding off people needed to get thicker skin.

Be the above as it may...there is a difference between being emotional and getting the troops wound up and excited or throwing a temper tantrum at a specific individual...which a lot his purple faces were the result of/directed at.

Regardless I miss his outbursts. At least he had a pulse back then.

 

[theskibro]

Most definitely a big reduction in subway alums going forward into the future. But I don't believe it has much to do with ND winning or losing football games. The large generation of subway alums was made up mostly, not solely, of people who did not attend college. Contrast that to the current situation where many many more people go to college. People who go to college tend to establish their own allegiances, whether it be to their alma mater or the alma mater of a spouse or significant other. Add to that the role of television. People in their late 50s and older grew up in an era where there was one national TV broadcast on Saturday, and maybe the occasional double header with two national games. ND was in more of those games national TV games than any other school. A huge exposure advantage over other schools. Plus you had the Sunday morning replays that so many of us grew up with. On a typical Saturday today in the Atlanta market there are roughly 40 televised college football games, and that doesn't even count the ones streaming on the internet. I suspect that most other major cities (not in New England) are the same. This not only gives exposure to a huge number of schools on a weekly basis, but allows more people the chance to watch their alma maters play on TV every week. It also leads to more easy regional fandoms. A kid who grew up in upstate New York and went to school at RIT gets to watch Syracuse pretty much every week on TV. 50 years ago Syracuse might have been on once every few years. It's just a totally different national college football landscape than it was when most of our subway alum relationships started. Many many more schools with tremendous weekly exposure on TV and in the news.

some good points here much like the Dallas Cowboys were always on tv similar

 

[theskibro]

Spot on.

Exclusively taking the polished diamonds and just polishing them some more is far less gratifying than taking the diamond in the rough and molding and building that young adult into the highly polished gem.

People will chime in real quick and say Stepherson, or Redfield....

I say so what. You won't get 100% graduation rate no matter what.

Every year there are kids that cant hack it for any school. The only ones you hear of are the better athletes. The average athletes nobody even knows if they've been dismissed but make no mistake every school gets some of those kids that cant do it. Just seldom hear about it.

If dismissed do we lose a scholarship? Nope.

Juco kids. WTF is wrong with them if they're now meeting the criteria?

We dare not let them in, why?

Someone better dare not say some extreme crazy example like an illiterate lineman from Last chance U.

Some kids scholastically don't start clicking until they are 19 or 20.

Too many lines in the sand drawn IMO to be highly competitive.

Cigars and champagne to 88

 

[dagimpper1]

You're assuming they want to attend ND. Being in South Bend is a disadvantage also.

I don't buy the South Bend argument. The weathers cold yes but, would you rather play a couple games in November in South Bend or do two a days in bama in august. Would you rather be a 90 minute train ride from Chicago or be in Tuscaloosa. Sure Birmingham is not far but, it's not Chicago. I really don't see how ND' s location has much to do with anything. It does get pretty cold in the south too. I've spent plenty of time down south in the winter. It's cold and dreary.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Morning Ski...I have one nagging fear about ND football, and that is a significant reduction in its so-called subway alums going forward, and the implications. My grandparents and parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins were hard core ND fans. Every other year when ND came to play USC, we had at least twenty of us together at the games, etc... and one year there were forty of us banded together in the USC rooting section. Fast forward to today, I’m 68 and me and my cousins are still hard core fans, but our sons and daughter for the most part aren’t. The ones that really follow college football tend to jump on the winner bandwagons, and ND is an afterthought. At some point, assuming this is somewhat Representative, ND will cease to be special and special deals like the ones you reference will cease, and revenue will decline from both donations and these outside sources of revenue. In this evolving environment, I think ND needs to be more than just relevant, ND needs to be a perennial power with legitimate NC aspirations, and changes need to be made now to make this a reality. Kelly has done a great job dragging the program and the facilities and game experience into today’s world of college football, but we need to take the next step; and there are many here who have recommended changes ranging from paying for elite coaches to relaxing academic workloads during the season to having a few exceptions to the admission standards each year, etc... all of which can be accomplished without sacrificing the values that makes ND special. I agree, the time for change is now.

Terrific post, agree 100%

It might not bite them in the a*s yet. That being said, 10-20 years down the road when the older Notre Dame fans pass away, the young people won't know the same Notre Dame that the older fans grew up with. I'm afraid that over time Notre Dame's football program will continue to become an afterthought and the once great Notre Dame brand will be tarnished. Reducing fans, donations, and ability to recruit off of prestige.

I hope I'm either wrong or dead when it happens but it's definitely going to be of major concern going forward. The brand has already faded massively just over the last 25 years. These embarrassing bowl losses will continue to take their toll if something's not done.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Did Urban do guys favors with his annual embarassments ?

Harbaugh ?

Are you really comparing Brian Kelly to Urban Meyer as a coach? Is this a joke?

 

[echowaker]

I don't buy the South Bend argument. The weathers cold yes but, would you rather play a couple games in November in South Bend or do two a days in bama in august. Would you rather be a 90 minute train ride from Chicago or be in Tuscaloosa. Sure Birmingham is not far but, it's not Chicago. I really don't see how ND' s location has much to do with anything. It does get pretty cold in the south too. I've spent plenty of time down south in the winter. It's cold and dreary.

i wasn't talking climate.

 

[dagimpper1]

i wasn't talking climate.

In general when posters talk about SB they mention weather as a problem. I get it SB. Is not fl. Or cal.. But, the area is still a pretty good place to go to college if a kid wants that college experience.

 

[shabak]

Yes but.
The majority of elite kids choose the easy quick path. But we do get 2 things - the small group of elites who like ND and we DO NOT GET the small group of elites who want to come to ND and are rejected

This in my opinion, is bs and needs to change. We need the admissions of the Vinny Cerrato Days. We can’t lose out on the Randy Mosses, and numerous other kids who want a chance to succeed and mature at a college that will challenge them

We do not give them that chance and that is bs and contrary to the - golden goose that is ND Football and contrary to doing the right thing by giving a small number of these kids a chance

If my memory serves me correctly, Randy Moss was not admitted because of an assault issue at his high school and had nothing to do with academics.

 

[echowaker]

In general when posters talk about SB they mention weather as a problem. I get it SB. Is not fl. Or cal.. But, the area is still a pretty good place to go to college if a kid wants that college experience.

Columbus has similar weather but it's a progressive ,vibrant city.

 

[twalsh]

If my memory serves me correctly, Randy Moss was not admitted because of an assault issue at his high school and had nothing to do with academics.

He was cut loose in recruiting after the assault, but he was also shaky academically. If you believe what you heard back then, his application was one of the more interesting ones admissions had received. Five different pens and three or four distinctly different handwriting styles. My guess is Admissions was relieved when we stopped recruiting him.

 

[88ND]

In general when posters talk about SB they mention weather as a problem. I get it SB. Is not fl. Or cal.. But, the area is still a pretty good place to go to college if a kid wants that college experience.

Don't get caught up in the excuses.

Happy valley...?? Ever been there? Absolutely nothing there.
Columbus...trust me when I tell you that is NOT some vibrant upbeat town. Progressive...lol...oh boy it might be that but it's not a booming heartbeat of Ohio.

What's this tell you about Columbus...875k plus population...more than Cleveland and Cincinnati combined population yet just got a pro sorts team with the blue jackets not too long ago. (4 major pro sports in North America thank you very much)

Ann Arbor???

Clemson? Definitely not an east coast mecca. lol.

The point is this....
Losers look for excuses after excuses

Winners find a way.

Recruit hard. Sell the program even harder. They will come.

You want excuses or results?

Results for me.

Thank you

 

[NDIRISH53]

In general when posters talk about SB they mention weather as a problem. I get it SB. Is not fl. Or cal.. But, the area is still a pretty good place to go to college if a kid wants that college experience.

Ehh...

 

[NDIRISH53]

Don't get caught up in the excuses.

Happy valley...?? Ever been there? Absolutely nothing there.
Columbus...trust me when I tell you that is NOT some vibrant upbeat town. Progressive...lol...oh boy it might be that but it's not a booming heartbeat of Ohio.

What's this tell you about Columbus...875k plus population...more than Cleveland and Cincinnati combined population yet just got a pro sorts team with the blue jackets not too long ago. (4 major pro sports in North America thank you very much)

Ann Arbor???

Clemson? Definitely not an east coast mecca. lol.

The point is this....
Losers look for excuses after excuses

Winners find a way.

Recruit hard. Sell the program even harder. They will come.

You want excuses or results?

Results for me.

Thank you

I hate excuses as well and not making any but happy valley for a college kid is absolutely nuts. My son goes up there all the time. Ann Arbor from what I hear is a really neat town. Clemson is in a beautiful place and the players have anything they could ask for down there. They have a mini golf course, a pool anything.

These major colleges Michigan,tOSU, Penn state, there’s a TON for those boys to do up there, not to mention the women.