Building An Elite Team in the Modern Era: Exhibit A, USC

[banmate6]

Check out this article: Lincoln Riley and portal-built USC hope their ‘arranged marriage’ spurs winning bliss

This citation was interesting to me:

Riley’s longtime ally, USC wide receivers coach Dennis Simmons, called the 2022 transfer-portal-built Trojans “kind of like an arranged marriage.”

“A lot of these kids, we didn’t sit in their parents’ living room and make any kind of conversation as to how we can help their child grow,” Simmons said, “and on the flip side, a lot of these kids that we worked with in the spring didn’t commit to us.”


USC basically did an overhaul in 1 fell swoop. I saw them play last night against Fresno. They sure looked good according to my eye test. Better than they've looked in 15 years.

It's too early to tell. But I believe USC is the 1 program can be an SEC killer. I live in CA and know this state has the highest absolute #'s of football talent. USC and Pete Carroll capitalized on this. Dominating until they got the death penalty for what the SEC institutionalized...but that's not the point.

The point is USC has now adapted to modern college football. Again, quickly, suddenly, deciding it wants to win. ND right now won't do this kind of construction. Get a big coach, transfer, and, let's face it, easy degrees that attract top talent wanting a shot at the NFL.

I might eat my words on USC. It will be an interesting last game ND vs USC. But watching both teams yesterday, I'm left with a certain feeling.

USC is swimming with a fast current downstream. ND is swimming against the current upstream.

 

[NDblitz]

Their D sucks. If Haener stays in the game Fresno scores 35 points. UGA wound beat them like they beat Oregon.

 

[banmate6]

Their D sucks. If Haener stays in the game Fresno scores 35 points. UGA wound beat them like they beat Oregon.

I agree the defense needs work. I'm not sure Haener would have done much better, as I thought he was more or less contained. It's not an elite defense like the offense seems to be...but this is something Riley will have wide berth to work with. Again, if USC can win, well, the brand will attract that CA talent and take care of this.

It's eye opening to me seeing how USC is going about this. And how ND cannot do the same thing. Even when I listen to Riley, players, and media, it really feels its football 1st...vs ND feeling like it's a scholastic endeavor as well. It was different under Holtz.

I'm not criticizing, just noting.

 

[d1042]

Their D sucks. If Haener stays in the game Fresno scores 35 points. UGA wound beat them like they beat Oregon.

The SC defense is fast skilled and way to small to take on the elite OL’s. Even ordinary OL’s push them around. CH left the cupboard bare and the Portal was not as rewarding to the Defense as the offense. It will be a couple of years before the SC defense can compete with top 10 teams; or top OL’s. SC needs 45-50 a game to win such games.

 

[Patrirish]

The SC defense is fast skilled and way to small to take on the elite OL’s. Even ordinary OL’s push them around. CH left the cupboard bare and the Portal was not as rewarding to the Defense as the offense. It will be a couple of years before the SC defense can compete with top 10 teams; or top OL’s. SC needs 45-50 a game to win such games.

When you can bring in 29 transfers, you can fix the defense in one year

 

[john0gaunt]

All it takes is a coach..

 

[IrishBeer]

Their D sucks. If Haener stays in the game Fresno scores 35 points. UGA wound beat them like they beat Oregon.

Wrong. ND is falling behind fast. They can’t keep up with progress. Plain and simple. ND is fading into the mist. I don’t think we recover this time. BK era was the last solid era.

 

[IrishBeer]

Those dissing usc will shit themselves when we play them. It’ll be a blowout. And this is Riley’s first year they have better players and a far better coach.

 

[hvillebill]

Those dissing usc will shit themselves when we play them. It’ll be a blowout. And this is Riley’s first year they have better players and a far better coach.

If he's so great then why didn't he win a NC at Oklahoma? He had plenty of chances and quite a few good players as I recall.

If he continues to use the portal to get so many players he may just as well quit recruiting high school kids, because other schools will use that against him. And, with good reason.

 

[iwish]

To be fair, he used the portal to bring some of his guys, make up for gaps and deficiencies, and to strengthen positions he didn’t have time to recruit. I hate USC as much as any team, but I also have feeling they will be really tough.

All that said, agree with the other poster that Bama and Georgia would crush them.

 

[banmate6]

If he's so great then why didn't he win a NC at Oklahoma? He had plenty of chances and quite a few good players as I recall.

If he continues to use the portal to get so many players he may just as well quit recruiting high school kids, because other schools will use that against him. And, with good reason.

Oklahoma cannot match the potential of USC on geography alone. As we discussed, CA is a massive talent pool. If USC commits to winning, I see few schools matching them.

The best football players will have every reason to go to USC: coaching, facilities, academic accommodation, NFL, locale, girls, and Hollywood. Plus CA kids stay closer to home.

The main point remains they can rebuild faster and to more potential than ND. By doing things like transfer portal. I expect they’ll do whatever the SEC schools do.

 

[Okie70]

Ban I take you are from California. Texas has a much greater talent pool of 5 stars than California. Always has; always will. Very good HS talent in Cal. Which Ohio State, Alabama, etc have been grabbing for years. OU has been recruiting in Texas since 1947 and it paid off. Riley a decent recruiter and very good offensive coach. But the reason he never won at NC at OU was the defensive talent and/or coaching. OU solved the coaching problem when Riley left. Will see what happens next. Caleb Williams played outstanding in 4 of the 8 game he played for OU last year. So-so in the other four. Against defenses (Kansas, Iowa State, Baylor, Ok. State) that are light years from Ga. or Ala. D's.

 

[IrishBeer]

If he's so great then why didn't he win a NC at Oklahoma? He had plenty of chances and quite a few good players as I recall.

If he continues to use the portal to get so many players he may just as well quit recruiting high school kids, because other schools will use that against him. And, with good reason.

He won with good players. Now he has great ones. MF can’t beat Marshall with good players.

 

[4-4-3]

Check out this article: Lincoln Riley and portal-built USC hope their ‘arranged marriage’ spurs winning bliss

This citation was interesting to me:

Riley’s longtime ally, USC wide receivers coach Dennis Simmons, called the 2022 transfer-portal-built Trojans “kind of like an arranged marriage.”

“A lot of these kids, we didn’t sit in their parents’ living room and make any kind of conversation as to how we can help their child grow,” Simmons said, “and on the flip side, a lot of these kids that we worked with in the spring didn’t commit to us.”


USC basically did an overhaul in 1 fell swoop. I saw them play last night against Fresno. They sure looked good according to my eye test. Better than they've looked in 15 years.

It's too early to tell. But I believe USC is the 1 program can be an SEC killer. I live in CA and know this state has the highest absolute #'s of football talent. USC and Pete Carroll capitalized on this. Dominating until they got the death penalty for what the SEC institutionalized...but that's not the point.

The point is USC has now adapted to modern college football. Again, quickly, suddenly, deciding it wants to win. ND right now won't do this kind of construction. Get a big coach, transfer, and, let's face it, easy degrees that attract top talent wanting a shot at the NFL.

I might eat my words on USC. It will be an interesting last game ND vs USC. But watching both teams yesterday, I'm left with a certain feeling.

USC is swimming with a fast current downstream. ND is swimming against the current upstream.

Good stuff.

I watched a documentary the other night on the HUNDRED YEARS WAR. In the war's first three phases, the English cut down the flower of French chivalry with the LONGBOW. But they weren't quick to adopt GUN POWDER which the French did beginning in the 1430's.

At PRECiSLEY THAT MOMENT -- with a little help from Joan of Arc -- the French began to ROLL and never lost another major battle, driving the English completely out of France.

NIL, the portal and potentially REVENUE SHARING are gun powder, firearms and the end of castles as SAFE SPACES (particularly, those in the sky), and if ND doesn't recognize this, it will be DRY TOAST, Freeman or no Freeman.

Paradigm shifts -- which is what you're talking about -- SWEEP ASIDE heroic personalites, particularly MEDIA MANUFACTURED ONES.

 

[tbonesays]

It's eye opening to me seeing how USC is going about this. And how ND cannot do the same thing. Even when I listen to Riley, players, and media, it really feels its football 1st...vs ND feeling like it's a scholastic endeavor as well. It was different under Holtz.

To be fair, he used the portal to bring some of his guys, make up for gaps and deficiencies, and to strengthen positions he didn’t have time to recruit. I hate USC as much as any team, but I also have feeling they will be really tough.

All that said, agree with the other poster that Bama and Georgia would crush them.

Riley's boosters tampered with a WR at Pitt and poached him to come to SC. Even if it is not technically against the rules I doubt very much ND's tribe would allow themselves to be caught doing that.

 

[NDblitz]

Wrong. ND is falling behind fast. They can’t keep up with progress. Plain and simple. ND is fading into the mist. I don’t think we recover this time. BK era was the last solid era.

What does this have to do with ND?

 

[NDblitz]

Those dissing usc will shit themselves when we play them. It’ll be a blowout. And this is Riley’s first year they have better players and a far better coach.

You are the Archie Bunker of Under the Dome. Again if the current ND offense shows up Yes. But USC has not only scored a bunch but has benefitted from freak turnovers and luck on the defensive side.

 

[burmafrd1943]

What does this have to do with ND?

he has been and always will be a troll

 

[IrishBeer]

What does this have to do with ND?

Literally the entire post was about ND

 

[IrishBeer]

You are the Archie Bunker of Under the Dome. Again if the current ND offense shows up Yes. But USC has not only scored a bunch but has benefitted from freak turnovers and luck on the defensive side.

I am whatever you want I guess but I’m not wrong.

 

[banmate6]

Ban I take you are from California. Texas has a much greater talent pool of 5 stars than California. Always has; always will. Very good HS talent in Cal. Which Ohio State, Alabama, etc have been grabbing for years. OU has been recruiting in Texas since 1947 and it paid off. Riley a decent recruiter and very good offensive coach. But the reason he never won at NC at OU was the defensive talent and/or coaching. OU solved the coaching problem when Riley left. Will see what happens next. Caleb Williams played outstanding in 4 of the 8 game he played for OU last year. So-so in the other four. Against defenses (Kansas, Iowa State, Baylor, Ok. State) that are light years from Ga. or Ala. D's.

This is an interesting discussion, which is nuanced, depending on how stats are done. Based on my quick look: Texas, Florida, California, and Georgia stand out. Most stats simply accumulate the # of 4 and 5 stars out of HS. But some adjust for how they actually perform in college.

Check this out, done in 2018, covering a 4 year period: Ranking the 10 States with the Most Talent in College Football Right Now

1) Texas 2) Florida 3) California 4) Georgia

They used this general criteria:

Selecting the states producing the most (and best) college football players is an inexact science.

We analyzed the top 100 prospects of the past four recruiting classes (2015-18), according to the 247Sports composite rankings, and took a sample set of 150 of the best players or those with the highest ceilings coming back in 2018.

The states with the highest number of players mattered, of course, but this exercise wasn't just about recruiting rankings. It also takes into account already-established playmakers, and states that have produced the best players get bonus points.


However, there was a caveat about California.

The unbelievable California quarterback class of 2015 produced waves of signal-callers that outfitted rosters throughout the country. The state would easily be No. 1 on this list had USC's Sam Darnold and UCLA's Josh Rosen stuck around for their senior seasons.
Instead, they left for the NFL, robbing the Golden State of two dynamic players that would have put them atop this list.

Don't get me wrong. Maybe Texas is the best? I say the top 4 are roughly equal.

I think my point is reinforced here about USC. They have almost a lock when they're committed to all CA talent. TX talent is going to many schools in contrast. USC has a chance to concentrate them.

Ironically, were ND to accommodate academically, I believe they'd be the #1 destination. The brand would burn, like a proverbial phoenix from ashes of mediocrity since Holtz left.

Great players would flock to ND if they could easily pass, play for the best coaches, and be part of a special and unique football mystique...anchored in being a defiant Catholic university that happens to win NCs.

Defiance has unfortunately given way to snootiness. Times have changed.

 

[Patrirish]

Oklahoma cannot match the potential of USC on geography alone. As we discussed, CA is a massive talent pool. If USC commits to winning, I see few schools matching them.

The best football players will have every reason to go to USC: coaching, facilities, academic accommodation, NFL, locale, girls, and Hollywood. Plus CA kids stay closer to home.

The main point remains they can rebuild faster and to more potential than ND. By doing things like transfer portal. I expect they’ll do whatever the SEC schools do.

AGREE ! Los Angeles and NYC are the media capitals of the U.S. and with the introduction of NIL that makes USC and UCLA even more desirable destinations !

 

[Okie70]

This is an interesting discussion, which is nuanced, depending on how stats are done. Based on my quick look: Texas, Florida, California, and Georgia stand out. Most stats simply accumulate the # of 4 and 5 stars out of HS. But some adjust for how they actually perform in college.

Check this out, done in 2018, covering a 4 year period: Ranking the 10 States with the Most Talent in College Football Right Now

1) Texas 2) Florida 3) California 4) Georgia

They used this general criteria:

Selecting the states producing the most (and best) college football players is an inexact science.

We analyzed the top 100 prospects of the past four recruiting classes (2015-18), according to the 247Sports composite rankings, and took a sample set of 150 of the best players or those with the highest ceilings coming back in 2018.

The states with the highest number of players mattered, of course, but this exercise wasn't just about recruiting rankings. It also takes into account already-established playmakers, and states that have produced the best players get bonus points.


However, there was a caveat about California.

The unbelievable California quarterback class of 2015 produced waves of signal-callers that outfitted rosters throughout the country. The state would easily be No. 1 on this list had USC's Sam Darnold and UCLA's Josh Rosen stuck around for their senior seasons.
Instead, they left for the NFL, robbing the Golden State of two dynamic players that would have put them atop this list.

Don't get me wrong. Maybe Texas is the best? I say the top 4 are roughly equal.

I think my point is reinforced here about USC. They have almost a lock when they're committed to all CA talent. TX talent is going to many schools in contrast. USC has a chance to concentrate them.

Ironically, were ND to accommodate academically, I believe they'd be the #1 destination. The brand would burn, like a proverbial phoenix from ashes of mediocrity since Holtz left.

Great players would flock to ND if they could easily pass, play for the best coaches, and be part of a special and unique football mystique...anchored in being a defiant Catholic university that happens to win NCs.

Defiance has unfortunately given way to snootiness. Times have changed.

Good stuff Ban. And never suggested OU could compete with Cal. talent. Which is why Bud W. sent his players to coach H.S. football in Texas in the 1940s and send some of their players to Norman. If USC getting all the California talent why have they been playing at the level of Texas for the last 10 years? Riley will get some of them for sure although this year he is living off the portal. But UCLA and Oregon have been getting their share for many years not to mention Ohio State and Alabama. Fun times.

 

[Okie70]

Did not mean this to turn into an USC vs. OU thread. Understand the issue being NDame's higher academic standards keeping it from getting marginal students who are great FB players. Apparently been playing out for many years. And have no opinion on it. Just makes it a tougher climb, that's all.

 

[banmate6]

Good stuff Ban. And never suggested OU could compete with Cal. talent. Which is why Bud W. sent his players to coach H.S. football in Texas in the 1940s and send some of their players to Norman. If USC getting all the California talent why have they been playing at the level of Texas for the last 10 years? Riley will get some of them for sure although this year he is living off the portal. But UCLA and Oregon have been getting their share for many years not to mention Ohio State and Alabama. Fun times.

USC got a death penalty. I mentioned it earlier. Plus, similar to ND, the administration just didn't pursue football the way it did to clean up for while.

Again, I could be wrong. But I think USC is changing its mind, ready to do what it takes. I think Riley must have gotten some concessions. That article I cited in the OP shows they're at least leveraging transfers...in a way ND won't.

All these comments about OK, TX, and USC are relevant to ND. It's illuminating how and why certain college football teams can be elite while some can't or won't. I think Nebraska can't, for many reasons...but ND could if it wanted to, but just won't.

I've no confidence I will see ND ever win a NC again in my life. I probably got another 25-30 years. It's been longer than since 1988.

 

[mbd11]

The main difference between USC and Notre Dame right now is the quarterback. They have a Heisman contender, and we have very average QBs. And QB's the most important position, obviously.

But we should have superior line play, so we may have a chance against them in November.

 

[Patrirish]

The main difference between USC and Notre Dame right now is the quarterback. They have a Heisman contender, and we have very average QBs. And QB's the most important position, obviously.

But we should have superior line play, so we may have a chance against them in November.

So you don’t think that there’s a significant disparity between the Head Coaches ?

 

[mbd11]

So you don’t think that there’s a significant disparity between the Head Coaches ?

No, but I do think they have the edge at Offensive Coordinator. Riley calls the plays and has a track record of top offenses at Oklahoma.

 

[savvyandsassier]

I'm not a maven on the history of Lincoln Riley's rise to elite coaching status. But I think it goes something like this.

He was spotted by OU's awesome AD, who supposedly is this far-seeing genius, as far as keeping a small-state program in that top tier, and not letting circumstances overtake them. And Riley was identified, and hired, and groomed to take over for Stoops with a real vision and a plan in mind. Whereas MF was merely hired in the moment because Jack Swarbrick had become smitten. And there was no master plan whatsoever. In that sense MF, we're he to become some great coach, would be more along the lines of Dabo Swinnery, as a surprise, against-the-odds success story....

 

[NDblitz]

I'm not a maven on the history of Lincoln Riley's rise to elite coaching status. But I think it goes something like this.

He was spotted by OU's awesome AD, who supposedly is this far-seeing genius, as far as keeping a small-state program in that top tier, and not letting circumstances overtake them. And Riley was identified, and hired, and groomed to take over for Stoops with a real vision and a plan in mind. Whereas MF was merely hired in the moment because Jack Swarbrick had become smitten. And there was no master plan whatsoever. In that sense MF, we're he to become some great coach, would be more along the lines of Dabo Swinnery, as a surprise, against-the-odds success story....

I agree. Yet I believe Freeman has more going for him than Dabo did at the time.

 

[Patrirish]

No, but I do think they have the edge at Offensive Coordinator. Riley calls the plays and has a track record of top offenses at Oklahoma.

Do you really believe that MF is the equal of LR ?

Seriously ?

 

[mbd11]

Do you really believe that MF is the equal of LR ?

Seriously ?

I really don't know. MF has only been a HC for a short time. Riley did well at Oklahoma, but never had very good defenses there. He's certainly not in Saban's or Smart's category yet.

 

[adrian1477]

USC got a death penalty. I mentioned it earlier. Plus, similar to ND, the administration just didn't pursue football the way it did to clean up for while.

Again, I could be wrong. But I think USC is changing its mind, ready to do what it takes. I think Riley must have gotten some concessions. That article I cited in the OP shows they're at least leveraging transfers...in a way ND won't.

All these comments about OK, TX, and USC are relevant to ND. It's illuminating how and why certain college football teams can be elite while some can't or won't. I think Nebraska can't, for many reasons...but ND could if it wanted to, but just won't.

I've no confidence I will see ND ever win a NC again in my life. I probably got another 25-30 years. It's been longer than since 1988.

Well said. I re-watched the 30 for 30, "Catholics vs Convicts" which outlined the '88 season. What surprised me was the amount of vitriol towards ND and Tony Rice for him being allowed in. It's really sad that people are like that because while Rice didn't have the grades to get in, he busted his ass academically and won us our last Natty. What a stand up guy too! Holtz was a brilliant HC. I mean he was damn good! Watching the footage of that 88 team reminded me of how dominant they were! O-Line blew people out, defense crushed people and the skill positions were fast! Sadly, like you, I believe those days are gone as well...

 

[adrian1477]

So you don’t think that there’s a significant disparity between the Head Coaches ?

Absolutely! LR has how many years as a successful HC at Oklahoma compared to MF who is currently sitting at 1-3 as a HC. Yes. At this time, LR is far better than MF.

 

[Patrirish]

I really don't know. MF has only been a HC for a short time. Riley did well at Oklahoma, but never had very good defenses there. He's certainly not in Saban's or Smart's category yet.

That wasn’t the comparison, Saban and Smart aren’t relevant to this discussion, you said that Freeman was Riley’s equal And that’s beyond absurd..

USC might make the playoffs this year.

If you make the playoffs can your defense be that bad ?

 

[Okie70]

I'm not a maven on the history of Lincoln Riley's rise to elite coaching status. But I think it goes something like this.

He was spotted by OU's awesome AD, who supposedly is this far-seeing genius, as far as keeping a small-state program in that top tier, and not letting circumstances overtake them. And Riley was identified, and hired, and groomed to take over for Stoops with a real vision and a plan in mind. Whereas MF was merely hired in the moment because Jack Swarbrick had become smitten. And there was no master plan whatsoever. In that sense MF, we're he to become some great coach, would be more along the lines of Dabo Swinnery, as a surprise, against-the-odds success story....

Pretty close Sav. Riley was at TTech so was know even before he went to E. Car. Lucked into getting the OC job with QBs like Mayfield and Kyler Murray. Offenses were good but no one thought he was the designated heir and were surprised when Bob Stoops retired. Did a decent job recruiting O talent but D was lacking for a few years. Now completely different in Norman with the Clemson D guys in charge.

 

[Patrirish]

Well said. I re-watched the 30 for 30, "Catholics vs Convicts" which outlined the '88 season. What surprised me was the amount of vitriol towards ND and Tony Rice for him being allowed in. It's really sad that people are like that because while Rice didn't have the grades to get in, he busted his ass academically and won us our last Natty. What a stand up guy too! Holtz was a brilliant HC. I mean he was damn good! Watching the footage of that 88 team reminded me of how dominant they were! O-Line blew people out, defense crushed people and the skill positions were fast! Sadly, like you, I believe those days are gone as well...

I tend to agree and with NIL and the TP rules I think it’s even more unlikely.

 

[banmate6]

I really don't know. MF has only been a HC for a short time. Riley did well at Oklahoma, but never had very good defenses there. He's certainly not in Saban's or Smart's category yet.

Successful head coaching experience at OK means Riley is the more proven and hence better hire than Freeman, as a matter of odds. More so if the ND experience with proven coaches is factored.

My heart is obviously with ND and Freeman. I like Freeman. But if I had to bet my life savings right now on who will be more successful...unfortunately, given all the discussions we're having, it'd have to be on Riley and USC as a dispassionate matter.

I want to be wrong. I'll never stop hoping and believing. And even if I am, I'll still enjoy ND till the end of my days.

It's after all just a game. Right?

 

[mbd11]

That wasn’t the comparison, Saban and Smart aren’t relevant to this discussion, you said that Freeman was Riley’s equal And that’s beyond absurd..

USC might make the playoffs this year.

If you make the playoffs can your defense be that bad ?

It’s way too early for them to be making playoff plans. They’ve run the gauntlet of Rice, Stanford and Fresno State so far.

 

[Patrirish]

It’s way too early for them to be making playoff plans. They’ve run the gauntlet of Rice, Stanford and Fresno State so far.

Yes, but their upside looks brighter than ND’s.

When you combine a significant talent pool with a successful HC, the outcome is usually a highly successful program. USC looks like a program that’s on a sharp rise