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An Observation - Causation or Correlation

Chitownrealist

Shakes Down The Thunder
Dec 27, 2006
163
174
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I would guess there have been well over 10,000 posts (potentially far more) about how hard it is to recruit at Notre Dame and the reasons for the extended spell since our last national championship. There are a fairly significant number who seem to believe that ND simply can't compete with the football factories given the academic rigor at ND and the expectations placed on football players in the classroom. I agree 100% that ND student athletes are held to a higher standard and that we are not shopping for players in the same aisle as the SEC schools, much of the Big 10, Big 12 and PAC 12. That being said, it seems to me that has always sort of been the case. I recognize that people will point to the Prop 48 years in the 80s when Holtz and Vinnie Cerrato were allegedly able to get in kids that "would not normally" have gotten in, but that seems to beg the question, what about all of those other years. Did our standards really change and where are they now?

The natural question for me was, if we assume that by and large the standards have been about the same with some moves up and down through the decades, and given where we may be now (would really have liked Marquise Stepp in Blue and Gold on Saturday) is it the case we are turning kids away, or is it potentially that there are more shoppers in our aisle (i.e. - more schools like ND seeking the same student athletes).

There is no clear answer, and I think there are a lot of variables in play here, but one that people don't seem to talk about that could be extremely significant, is that during ND's dry spell (93-present), two schools (maybe 3) that were academic powerhouses, but football wastelands, previously have emerged to pull talent from the pool where ND dominated (excellent football players who want a top flight education). The emergence of Northwestern and Stanford over the last 25 years, and Duke since Cutcliffe, has coincided with ND's challenges. For Northwestern, wikipedia actually lists 1972-1991 as "Years of Futility" rather than list the coaches. For Stanford, Bill Walsh returned in 92, and while they had a few turds in there after him, Harbaugh definitely changed the attitude there. Shaw is trying to maintain it, but... maybe that sun is setting. Fitzgerald's schtick seems to be getting a little tired as well.

In essence, while many of us look inward to the program and administration when asking why we have not won our next national championship, part of the answer may be out of our control. We need the cycle to complete and have Northwestern and Stanford return to their crappy mean and stop attracting football players that formerly would only consider ND. Just something to ponder.
 
Football was the top priority and when father hesburgh came in. Akademiks where the top priority when he left.

(Leaving it there, that is how voice to text spelled "academics")
 
I would guess there have been well over 10,000 posts (potentially far more) about how hard it is to recruit at Notre Dame and the reasons for the extended spell since our last national championship. There are a fairly significant number who seem to believe that ND simply can't compete with the football factories given the academic rigor at ND and the expectations placed on football players in the classroom. I agree 100% that ND student athletes are held to a higher standard and that we are not shopping for players in the same aisle as the SEC schools, much of the Big 10, Big 12 and PAC 12. That being said, it seems to me that has always sort of been the case. I recognize that people will point to the Prop 48 years in the 80s when Holtz and Vinnie Cerrato were allegedly able to get in kids that "would not normally" have gotten in, but that seems to beg the question, what about all of those other years. Did our standards really change and where are they now?

The natural question for me was, if we assume that by and large the standards have been about the same with some moves up and down through the decades, and given where we may be now (would really have liked Marquise Stepp in Blue and Gold on Saturday) is it the case we are turning kids away, or is it potentially that there are more shoppers in our aisle (i.e. - more schools like ND seeking the same student athletes).

There is no clear answer, and I think there are a lot of variables in play here, but one that people don't seem to talk about that could be extremely significant, is that during ND's dry spell (93-present), two schools (maybe 3) that were academic powerhouses, but football wastelands, previously have emerged to pull talent from the pool where ND dominated (excellent football players who want a top flight education). The emergence of Northwestern and Stanford over the last 25 years, and Duke since Cutcliffe, has coincided with ND's challenges. For Northwestern, wikipedia actually lists 1972-1991 as "Years of Futility" rather than list the coaches. For Stanford, Bill Walsh returned in 92, and while they had a few turds in there after him, Harbaugh definitely changed the attitude there. Shaw is trying to maintain it, but... maybe that sun is setting. Fitzgerald's schtick seems to be getting a little tired as well.

In essence, while many of us look inward to the program and administration when asking why we have not won our next national championship, part of the answer may be out of our control. We need the cycle to complete and have Northwestern and Stanford return to their crappy mean and stop attracting football players that formerly would only consider ND. Just something to ponder.
Good topic. My personal view is that the big culprit is that football has changed. Think about how football was played 30yrs ago, in the box. OL, TEs, fullback, toughness and power.

Think back to that epic 1993 game with FSU. No way we had as many “athletes” as they did. Did we have any explosive WRs on that team? Did we have a QB that can sling it all over? Did we have a homerun hitter at RB in Lee Benton? The answers are No, No, No....yet we won.

Now, the game is all about the spread, quick, fast athletes in space. Think about where the typical tough, slower, more powerful players come from....the north/Midwest/east coast. Where do all the fast, agile athletes come from....south the west coast. That’s why the south has dominated college football recently because players tend to stay in their region. Just watch an SEC game and then watch teams like Iowa, Mich St, Wisconsin.....there’s a huge difference in speed.

We are making progress to recruit more explosive athletes from the south, specifically Georgia. Does the ND culture/academics make it harder to recruit? Yes but it’s still possible, our recruiting pool is just smaller. For example, we’ve pretty much given up on recruiting Florida players due to the recent issues with those players not being able to fit in at ND. The Florida public schools just aren’t a great fit for preparing them to be at ND. A Lynch, G Bryant, Stepherson, Dex Williams, K Austin....all Florida players who have been in real trouble at ND. It’s a shame because we all know Florida is loaded with elite athletes.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. I have no clue if I’m right to completely wrong, just my opinion.
 
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“Just watch an SEC game and then watch teams like Iowa, Mich St, Wisconsin.....there’s a huge difference in speed.”

Don’t wanna take one sentence of your post out of context but you’re acting as though Iowa, MSU and/or wisco don’t ever beat said SEC teams. They do regularly come bowl season.
 
The academic priorities at ND started with university president Father Cavanaugh and Leahy. Father Ted was the young up and comer and was sent by Cavanaugh to inform Coach Leahy that things were going to change. That was the beginning of the end for Frank Leahy with Terry Brennan suffering the brunt of this academic shift when he took over the program. Father Cavanuagh wanted academics to drive ND, not football. This was all spelled out brilliantly in the book "Talking Irish. An Oral History of ND Football" by Steve Delsohn.
 
I would guess there have been well over 10,000 posts (potentially far more) about how hard it is to recruit at Notre Dame and the reasons for the extended spell since our last national championship. There are a fairly significant number who seem to believe that ND simply can't compete with the football factories given the academic rigor at ND and the expectations placed on football players in the classroom. I agree 100% that ND student athletes are held to a higher standard and that we are not shopping for players in the same aisle as the SEC schools, much of the Big 10, Big 12 and PAC 12. That being said, it seems to me that has always sort of been the case. I recognize that people will point to the Prop 48 years in the 80s when Holtz and Vinnie Cerrato were allegedly able to get in kids that "would not normally" have gotten in, but that seems to beg the question, what about all of those other years. Did our standards really change and where are they now?

The natural question for me was, if we assume that by and large the standards have been about the same with some moves up and down through the decades, and given where we may be now (would really have liked Marquise Stepp in Blue and Gold on Saturday) is it the case we are turning kids away, or is it potentially that there are more shoppers in our aisle (i.e. - more schools like ND seeking the same student athletes).

There is no clear answer, and I think there are a lot of variables in play here, but one that people don't seem to talk about that could be extremely significant, is that during ND's dry spell (93-present), two schools (maybe 3) that were academic powerhouses, but football wastelands, previously have emerged to pull talent from the pool where ND dominated (excellent football players who want a top flight education). The emergence of Northwestern and Stanford over the last 25 years, and Duke since Cutcliffe, has coincided with ND's challenges. For Northwestern, wikipedia actually lists 1972-1991 as "Years of Futility" rather than list the coaches. For Stanford, Bill Walsh returned in 92, and while they had a few turds in there after him, Harbaugh definitely changed the attitude there. Shaw is trying to maintain it, but... maybe that sun is setting. Fitzgerald's schtick seems to be getting a little tired as well.

In essence, while many of us look inward to the program and administration when asking why we have not won our next national championship, part of the answer may be out of our control. We need the cycle to complete and have Northwestern and Stanford return to their crappy mean and stop attracting football players that formerly would only consider ND. Just something to ponder.

Some good points. Duke, Northwestern, & Stanford never had ND’s standards for football. They would be extremely happy if they had any of the success that BK has had @ ND. Fans like myself yearn for the Lou days which I’ve come to grips is over. If Duke wins 7/8 football games that’s a good year. ND gets much higher rated recruits then those 3 schools.
 
Some good points. Duke, Northwestern, & Stanford never had ND’s standards for football. They would be extremely happy if they had any of the success that BK has had @ ND. Fans like myself yearn for the Lou days which I’ve come to grips is over. If Duke wins 7/8 football games that’s a good year. ND gets much higher rated recruits then those 3 schools.


Harlem

As a child rooting for ND it was glorious! The history and heroes were inspiring.

But think of it this way, you have a favorite pizza store you gone to for many years! best pizza ever!

But the proprietor gets old, sells the business and retires. The new owner comes in and he keeps the same business name as of old!
However his pizza ? not the same. The recipe is different, the taste just is not good anymore. Maybe other establishments have more tasty new recipes.

The memory of that great pizza has not diminished but the current pizza biz, well it is just a different entity.
 
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