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A couple of thoughts on Tom Brady. Share yours.

Golson, both qbs took their teams to heights that other qbs wouldn’t have been able to, but my point was that the pats team that Brady joined was better than the niners team that joe joined initially. I shouldn’t have said Brady joined a great team, I should have said they were more accustomed to winning than the niners and were setup to win more so than those niners were. The pats had twice as many wins as the niners in the years prior to both of them taking over. Both qbs made their teams great because of how great they were. But as I said before, I’m splitting hairs on the subject and you’re saying it wasn’t close, that’s my disagreement.
Brady basically has doubled all Joes reg season and playoff stats in numbers and wins. I dont see how it's that close
 
“Brady basically has doubled all Joes reg season and playoff stats in numbers and wins. I dont see how it's that close”

And had joe played in this era of not laying a finger on the qb and not being able to mug wrs as they did when joe played, I’m sure the stats would be similar. But a pretty important stat would be tds-ints in the super bowl and joe was 11 tds to zero picks. I don’t know what Brady is in that category but I know it’s not anywhere close to that. Offensive stats should be thrown out the window in terms of comparing players from different eras anyway. But w/ that said, I did mention earlier that Brady does have joe on longevity and games/seasons missed because of injury. Do you think Brady lasts for 20 years in Joe’s era? I don’t. You can go on and on and on about it not being close but it’ll fall on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned and all your talk about stats won’t change my opinion. It’s very close, so close I wouldn’t want to have to decide, but I know w/ either one of them, I’d be set. Continue to try and convince me it’s not close if you want though. Just know you’re not getting anywhere w/ it, in my eyes.
 
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“Brady basically has doubled all Joes reg season and playoff stats in numbers and wins. I dont see how it's that close”

And had joe played in this era of not laying a finger on the qb and not being able to mug wrs as they did when joe played, I’m sure the stats would be similar. But a pretty important stat would be tds-ints in the super bowl and joe was 11 tds to zero picks. I don’t know what Brady is in that category but I know it’s not anywhere close to that. Offensive stats should be thrown out the window in terms of comparing players from different eras anyway. But w/ that said, I did mention earlier that Brady does have joe on longevity and games/seasons missed because of injury. Do you think Brady lasts for 20 years in Joe’s era? I don’t. You can go on and on and on about it not being close but it’ll fall on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned and all your talk about stats won’t change my opinion. It’s very close, so close I wouldn’t want to have to decide, but I know w/ either one of them, I’d be set. Continue to try and convince me it’s not close if you want though. Just know you’re not getting anywhere w/ it, in my eyes.

There is no asterisk next to Joe Montanas name in Canton. He never lost a super bowl.
 
“Brady basically has doubled all Joes reg season and playoff stats in numbers and wins. I dont see how it's that close”

And had joe played in this era of not laying a finger on the qb and not being able to mug wrs as they did when joe played, I’m sure the stats would be similar. But a pretty important stat would be tds-ints in the super bowl and joe was 11 tds to zero picks. I don’t know what Brady is in that category but I know it’s not anywhere close to that. Offensive stats should be thrown out the window in terms of comparing players from different eras anyway. But w/ that said, I did mention earlier that Brady does have joe on longevity and games/seasons missed because of injury. Do you think Brady lasts for 20 years in Joe’s era? I don’t. You can go on and on and on about it not being close but it’ll fall on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned and all your talk about stats won’t change my opinion. It’s very close, so close I wouldn’t want to have to decide, but I know w/ either one of them, I’d be set. Continue to try and convince me it’s not close if you want though. Just know you’re not getting anywhere w/ it, in my eyes.
I'm not trying to convince you. You're probably one of the few who still think it is close. You're entitled to that opinion
 
“I'm not trying to convince you. You're probably one of the few who still think it is close. You're entitled to that opinion”

I think you’re full of it if you think there’s only a few that think it’s close, but you’re entitled to your opinion too.
 
“I'm not trying to convince you. You're probably one of the few who still think it is close. You're entitled to that opinion”

I think you’re full of it if you think there’s only a few that think it’s close, but you’re entitled to your opinion too.
Talk to non ND fans and grads. Theres no metric, stat or numbers, wins or super bowls, longevity, to make a case that it is close.

Nothing is even close
 
From Montana to Favre the NFC won basically every Superbowl and many were blowouts. Something must have been different. Did they change the trading rules in the mid 90s?
 
“Talk to non ND fans and grads. Theres no metric, stat or numbers, wins or super bowls, longevity, to make a case that it is close.

Nothing is even close”

I haven’t conducted a poll of non ND fans and grads but I can guarantee you that there are plenty that think it’s close. You can say it’s not close, it’s still just your opinion. It’s as close as it can get, imho.
 
“Brady basically has doubled all Joes reg season and playoff stats in numbers and wins. I dont see how it's that close”

And had joe played in this era of not laying a finger on the qb and not being able to mug wrs as they did when joe played, I’m sure the stats would be similar. But a pretty important stat would be tds-ints in the super bowl and joe was 11 tds to zero picks. I don’t know what Brady is in that category but I know it’s not anywhere close to that. Offensive stats should be thrown out the window in terms of comparing players from different eras anyway. But w/ that said, I did mention earlier that Brady does have joe on longevity and games/seasons missed because of injury. Do you think Brady lasts for 20 years in Joe’s era? I don’t. You can go on and on and on about it not being close but it’ll fall on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned and all your talk about stats won’t change my opinion. It’s very close, so close I wouldn’t want to have to decide, but I know w/ either one of them, I’d be set. Continue to try and convince me it’s not close if you want though. Just know you’re not getting anywhere w/ it, in my eyes.

Francade,

If you think that defenders don’t lay a finger on QB’s today you’re out of touch with reality.

Today’s defenders are bigger, stronger and faster than their predecessors.

Today’s Linebackers are as big as defensive linemen from decades ago.

Today’s players are huge, run like deer and are strong as hell, and they’re in great shape.

The rules have changed to insure that no one is maimed, knocked out of the game for life or killed, but QB’s still get hit ....... hard.

Running QB’s have a very short shelf life in the NFL.

Pocket passers enjoy more longevity, that’s why Marino, Manning, Brees and Brady enjoyed extended careers.

If you scramble in the NFL it’s only a matter of time before you get injured.
Every defender is big, strong fast and fit and scrambling without planned blocking is a formula for disaster
 
Pat, don’t paint a picture that Montana played against bums in his day. That’s BS. I’m not gonna list all the great defenders he played against but you’re crazy if you think that the treatment of the qb or wrs is the same today as it was when Montana played. Are lineman a little bigger now? Sure, but the way they protect the qb & wrs is no comparison. And no today’s linebackers are not bigger than they were, if anything they’ve gotten faster and smaller. Don’t talk about to me about being out of touch w/ reality when you’re trying to sell that qbs/wrs get hit in the manner that they used to. That’s dumb and far from reality.
 
Pat, don’t paint a picture that Montana played against bums in his day. That’s BS. I’m not gonna list all the great defenders he played against but you’re crazy if you think that the treatment of the qb or wrs is the same today as it was when Montana played. Are lineman a little bigger now? Sure, but the way they protect the qb & wrs is no comparison. And no today’s linebackers are not bigger than they were, if anything they’ve gotten faster and smaller. Don’t talk about to me about being out of touch w/ reality when you’re trying to sell that qbs/wrs get hit in the manner that they used to. That’s dumb and far from reality.
They don't get hit the way they used to. That is true. But players are way bigger, faster and stronger now than when Joe played. It's staggering. So getting hit by players today is more dangerous.
 
To me, these arguments about GOAT just fall flat because of all the differences in the game from one generation to another. From Unitas to Bradshaw to Montana to Brady to ? ... the game, how it is played, and the size and speed and physical prowess of the players keeps evolving. In my opinion, Montana was the greatest QB of his generation; and the same of Brady for his generation. To me, it’s like arguing over who was the greatest home run hitter in baseball between Ruth and Maris and Aaron and Bonds. Just way too many variables.
 
Pat, don’t paint a picture that Montana played against bums in his day. That’s BS. I’m not gonna list all the great defenders he played against but you’re crazy if you think that the treatment of the qb or wrs is the same today as it was when Montana played. Are lineman a little bigger now? Sure, but the way they protect the qb & wrs is no comparison. And no today’s linebackers are not bigger than they were, if anything they’ve gotten faster and smaller. Don’t talk about to me about being out of touch w/ reality when you’re trying to sell that qbs/wrs get hit in the manner that they used to. That’s dumb and far from reality.

You’re delusional !

Where did I state that Montana played against bums ?

That’s your feeble attempt to distort the facts..

Let’s take it further, how about the QB’s who played without face masks.
One could make the argument that Montana played in an era where they protected the QB’s far more than in the past.
 
Clearly benefited from the “hands off the QB” decades ....didn’t have to take the beatings Bradshaw, Kelly or Montana had to endure.

Part of this is him knowing how not to take a beating. He takes care of himself and knows how to contort his body. Helps that he gets the ball out as quickly as he does. He’s outlasted guys drafted years after him
 
I always enjoyed watching Willis Reed trading blows with Wilt Chamberlain. I never thought of Larry Bird being the great anything. He did remind me a lot of a modern day version of John Havlicek.
If you didn't think Larry Bird was great then you didn't watch him play much. The guy was amazing . Easily one of the top Celtics of all time.
 
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Part of this is him knowing how not to take a beating. He takes care of himself and knows how to contort his body. Helps that he gets the ball out as quickly as he does. He’s outlasted guys drafted years after him
Brady does not take off to bail out plays. Montana had that in his arsenal and was pretty good at it.

OTOH I'd guess the defenses are much improved now. Some of those 49ers replays show JM had his choice of four receivers each obscenely wide open. Bill Walsh was way ahead of the curve for a while.
 
“You’re delusional !

Where did I state that Montana played against bums ?

Your response made it sound like that.

also, lbs were actually bigger back then, and Montana played against Jerome brown, Reggie white, Dan Hampton, Steve mcmichael, mike singletary, Otis Wilson, Lawrence Taylor, Carl banks, etc....

but all that is irrelevant to the point. The point was that the rules have changed dramatically to make it easier offensively. If you can’t see that, maybe that’s your “feeble attempt to distort the facts“. You can shove the delusional talk too. There’s nothing delusional about how it is a much easier go of it offensively for the qb and wrs now than it was when Montana played. Just look at the passing stats, anything from before the 90s-2000s will all be afterthoughts soon. As for the players before face masks? I’m only 53 and didn’t get to see them play, maybe one of them should be considered best ever too. As for now, my opinion is that it’s a close call between Brady & Montana. I really don’t know why that bothers some of you, it’s not as though I haven’t said Brady’s the best ever either, I just think it’s closer than some of you say. I’d be happy w/ either. Jmo.
 
“They don't get hit the way they used to. That is true. But players are way bigger, faster and stronger now than when Joe played. It's staggering. So getting hit by players today is more dangerous.”

I disagree that they’re “way bigger, faster & stronger”. They’re bigger on the line and probably faster at the lb position but I don’t agree it’s more dangerous today. I don’t think there’s any way it’s more dangerous today. Jmo
 
“They don't get hit the way they used to. That is true. But players are way bigger, faster and stronger now than when Joe played. It's staggering. So getting hit by players today is more dangerous.”

I disagree that they’re “way bigger, faster & stronger”. They’re bigger on the line and probably faster at the lb position but I don’t agree it’s more dangerous today. I don’t think there’s any way it’s more dangerous today. Jmo
Lol
 
I’ll take Joe over Tom everyday of the week. And I agree that today’s game is a lot different then when Joe played, or Terry Bradshaw and Johnny Unitas. But Tom as the statistics and all the rings. He is the most accomplished player of all time. With that said I’ll take Joe Montana to win me one game over anyone else. But I think Tom Brady is the best all time.
 
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If Joe Montana grew up in this era he would do fine in thee NFL. It doesn't work that way so why get in a lather discussing it.
 
If you didn't think Larry Bird was great then you didn't watch him play much. The guy was amazing . Easily one of the top Celtics of all time.

I've been watching the NBA ever since 1959. Yes I watched Bird play. He was a very good player but you have too be beyond very special to earn the label Great from me. I thought better of you Pennick4.
 
I've been watching the NBA ever since 1959. Yes I watched Bird play. He was a very good player but you have too be beyond very special to earn the label Great from me. I thought better of you Pennick4.
Ara, obviously, We’re each entitled to our opinions. You and I are nearly the same age and started watching NBA basketball about the same time. I would absolutely give the title GREAT to Larry Bird. Not that they are geniuses when it comes to evaluating careers, but the folks at ESPN rank Bird #7 of the all time top 50 greats to play the game, just behind Chamberlain. Our guy Russell was rated #4!
 
I've been watching the NBA ever since 1959. Yes I watched Bird play. He was a very good player but you have too be beyond very special to earn the label Great from me. I thought better of you Pennick4.
Didn't mean to offend...Just disagree.
 
Ara, obviously, We’re each entitled to our opinions. You and I are nearly the same age and started watching NBA basketball about the same time. I would absolutely give the title GREAT to Larry Bird. Not that they are geniuses when it comes to evaluating careers, but the folks at ESPN rank Bird #7 of the all time top 50 greats to play the game, just behind Chamberlain. Our guy Russell was rated #4!
Well said as usual Telx1!
 
I could care less what espn says. There's no way in hades Larry Bird was in the same galaxy with Wilt Chamberlain. The last three years of his career maybe; But certainly not the first ten years of his career. I watched Chamberlain dominate Russell too many times to say Russell was better than chamberlain. They were both great but I'd take Chamberlain all day long.
 
I think that my problem is espn says it.Anything that happen before them is lessen in their eyes. When Wilt Chamberlain retired he owned over 100 NBA records. He currently holds 68 records and shares another 4 =72 after being retired for47 years. Too bad they didn't keep block shots records back then. Here is the record of Wilt Chamberlain:

.

I never get offended when we talk history of the game. Oh just a reminder that Wilt cut back on his offensive production when Bill Sharman became coach of the Lakers. Coach wanted Wilt to pattern his game after the great Bill Russell. Opinions are like heads; everybody has one. I'll take a 24 year old Goliath over any player who has ever played the game.
 
I've been watching the NBA ever since 1959. Yes I watched Bird play. He was a very good player but you have too be beyond very special to earn the label Great from me. I thought better of you Pennick4.
Hes one of the 10 greatest players of all time so hes well beyond great
 
“They don't get hit the way they used to. That is true. But players are way bigger, faster and stronger now than when Joe played. It's staggering. So getting hit by players today is more dangerous.”

I disagree that they’re “way bigger, faster & stronger”. They’re bigger on the line and probably faster at the lb position but I don’t agree it’s more dangerous today. I don’t think there’s any way it’s more dangerous today. Jmo

Have you ever been in an NFL locker room before and after the game ?

The clean hits are harder.

Today’s players are “bigger, faster and stronger” than the players from Montana’s days, that’s irrefutable, and I’m a big Montana fan.
 
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“Have you ever been in an NFL locker room before and after the game ?

The clean hits are harder.

Today’s players are “bigger, faster and stronger” than the players from Montana’s days, that’s irrefutable, and I’m a big Montana fan.”

I don’t think I disputed that the clean hits now are harder, I said it was more dangerous back then, wrs were mugged compared to today, & qbs took more (& more aggressive & low hits & hits to the helmet, etc...) hits than they do now because of the rules. The NFL has practically made it their sole signature concern to make it more safe and you’re trying to tell me that it’s not easier on the offense nowadays? Sorry, pat, I disagree. And just ftr, I love Brady too and will be rooting for him Sunday, I just don’t agree that it’s not close bewteeen him and Montana.
 
“Have you ever been in an NFL locker room before and after the game ?

The clean hits are harder.

Today’s players are “bigger, faster and stronger” than the players from Montana’s days, that’s irrefutable, and I’m a big Montana fan.”

I don’t think I disputed that the clean hits now are harder, I said it was more dangerous back then, wrs were mugged compared to today, & qbs took more (& more aggressive & low hits & hits to the helmet, etc...) hits than they do now because of the rules. The NFL has practically made it their sole signature concern to make it more safe and you’re trying to tell me that it’s not easier on the offense nowadays? Sorry, pat, I disagree. And just ftr, I love Brady too and will be rooting for him Sunday, I just don’t agree that it’s not close bewteeen him and Montana.

Both are great, no doubt, but Brady reaching the Super Bowl with another team just 1 year after leaving the Patriots certainly adds to his resume.
 
It was close after Brady’s first 4 Super Bowl appearances. Not close with 10.

How many would it take to convince Brady deniers otherwise? I’m convinced that with every appearance, Brady’s legacy diminishes in the eyes of those that hate him
 
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Joe did lead a kc team w/ JJ birden & willie Davis at wr to the AFC championship and ran into a really good bills team. He was on his last legs w/ injuries too. Bad elbow and pulled hamstring hindered him all year and was still able to lead a chiefs team further than they had gone in a couple decades. Don’t know if that team was as good as this bucs team, defensively maybe, but certainly not offensively weapons-wise.
 
Obviously Tom Brady is the GOAT as far as career achievements. That seems pretty much inarguable. It is fair to say that playing for the Pats helped him get to nine Super Bowls. He himself helped make the Patriots what they are, but as far the Patriots greatness goes, Belicheck>>>Brady, if you get my drift. And you could say the same thing about Bill Walsh and Montana I would think.

Personally, I don't care much about stats. i care about your game, how truly bad-ass you are or not, not how many stats you piled up over the years. So I give Tom Brady his due, and if the GOAT terminology means anything it probably should apply to him among all time NFL QBs. But I would definitely take Aaron Rogers over Brady if I had to choose, not so much for GOAT status or not, just who I'd rather have on my team.
 
Obviously Tom Brady is the GOAT as far as career achievements. That seems pretty much inarguable. It is fair to say that playing for the Pats helped him get to nine Super Bowls. He himself helped make the Patriots what they are, but as far the Patriots greatness goes, Belicheck>>>Brady, if you get my drift. And you could say the same thing about Bill Walsh and Montana I would think.

Personally, I don't care much about stats. i care about your game, how truly bad-ass you are or not, not how many stats you piled up over the years. So I give Tom Brady his due, and if the GOAT terminology means anything it probably should apply to him among all time NFL QBs. But I would definitely take Aaron Rogers over Brady if I had to choose, not so much for GOAT status or not, just who I'd rather have on my team.

There is a reason Tom Brady has been to ten super bowls and Aaron Rodgers only one. Mental Makeup

Aaron is more talented and has better stats than Tom but melts when things go South. Tom just gets knocked down gets up again dusts himself off and continues with his work. Aaron is a whiner.
 
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