2 in the top hundred

[Patriot82]

Today's announcement that 2 of the Notre Dame signees made the top 100 is great for these two. We should also be mindful that there are 98 others in the top 100 that the competition has scooped up.

To think competing with the teams getting the bulk of top recruits is reasonable in in fact not reasonable at all.

 

[TDIrish27]

Today's announcement that 2 of the Notre Dame signees made the top 100 is great for these two. We should also be mindful that there are 98 others in the top 100 that the competition has scooped up.

To think competing with the teams getting the bulk of top recruits is reasonable in in fact not reasonable at all.

We don't play all the teams that get the bulk of the Top 100 recruits.

We did play Michigan , USC and FSU who have consistently outrecruited us according to experts and we fared pretty well.

 

[1Redrum]

2 is not enough

 

[chaseball]

We don't play all the teams that get the bulk of the Top 100 recruits.

We did play Michigan , USC and FSU who have consistently outrecruited us according to experts and we fared pretty well.

It's more than who they lineup against any given week .. they are also trying to earn playoff votes by looking better than the other 130+ teams in the FBS.
Because FSU and USC had down years doesn't diminish the importance of winning the 'talent' war. It just means they failed despite having more tools to work with. The other top 6 programs with the most talent were all in the playoff or borderline playoff teams who've monopolized the national championship picture dating as far back as the recruiting databases go.

 

[chaseball]

Today's announcement that 2 of the Notre Dame signees made the top 100 is great for these two. We should also be mindful that there are 98 others in the top 100 that the competition has scooped up.

To think competing with the teams getting the bulk of top recruits is reasonable in in fact not reasonable at all.

247s composite 2019 class rankings currently has ZERO ND recruits ranked in the consensus top 100. This should change when they update and account for Kyle Hamilton's move into the top 100 on Rivals but at the moment there are currently ZERO top 100 players in NDs 2019 CLASS on 247s composite ranking (which is the better ranking system).

For comparison sake, Alabama has 10, Georgia has 8, Texas A&M has 7, and Oklahoma has 6, Notre Dame has 0.

Many of those other team's top 100 recruits are also 5 star/borderline 5 star and they are still in play with many more elite recruits right up to NSD (early february).

ND hasn't signed a 5 star since 2013 and have had a total of SEVEN top 100 composite recruits in the last three years combined.

ANYBODY WHO DOESNT SEE THESE NUMBERS AND IMMEDIATELY SEE A PROBLEM IS CLUELESS AND NAIVE.

 

[NDAFArly]

It's more than who they lineup against any given week .. they are also trying to earn playoff votes by looking better than the other 130+ teams in the FBS.
Because FSU and USC had down years doesn't diminish the importance of winning the 'talent' war. It just means they failed despite having more tools to work with. The other top 6 programs with the most talent were all in the playoff or borderline playoff teams who've monopolized the national championship picture dating as far back as the recruiting databases go.

Off the top of my head I can only think of a couple schools who have played for more titles (BCS & CFP) than ND the past 7 seasons. (10 cycles of recruits).

ND has played for 2.

Bama.(6)
Clemson (4)
Oklahoma (3)
ND (2)
OSU (2)
FSU (2)

So only three schools have played for more?

 

[dagimpper1]

Getting beat badly in the play off or bcs championship game equals a participation award. Not good enough for ND. Well maybe good enough for todays ND. Heads would roll at ND prior to bob Davie.

 

[NDAFArly]

247s composite 2019 class rankings currently has ZERO ND recruits ranked in the consensus top 100. This should change when they update and account for Kyle Hamilton's move into the top 100 on Rivals but at the moment there are currently ZERO top 100 players in NDs 2019 CLASS on 247s composite ranking (which is the better ranking system).

For comparison sake, Alabama has 10, Georgia has 8, Texas A&M has 7, and Oklahoma has 6, Notre Dame has 0.

Many of those other team's top 100 recruits are also 5 star/borderline 5 star and they are still in play with many more elite recruits right up to NSD (early february).

ND hasn't signed a 5 star since 2013 and have had a total of SEVEN top 100 composite recruits in the last three years combined.

ANYBODY WHO DOESNT SEE THESE NUMBERS AND IMMEDIATELY SEE A PROBLEM IS CLUELESS AND NAIVE.

IF I TYPE IN CAPS DOES THAT MEAN IT US TRUE?

Winning games is more important than “winning recruiting.”

I don’t care if we are ranked dead last every year in recruiting if we are playing in the CFP.

All that matters is what they do in college, not HS.

Texas A&M, FSU, USC, Michigan, Oregon. Five teams that “out recruit” ND currently that ND is better than.

Four schools (Bama, UGA, Clemson & OSU) will out recruit ND & ND cannot do anything about it.

 

[chaseball]

Why is this STILL a debate in the year 2019?

*facepalm*

 

[NDAFArly]

Getting beat badly in the play off or bcs championship game equals a participation award. Not good enough for ND. Well maybe good enough for todays ND. Heads would roll at ND prior to bob Davie.

Look at the history over the last 15 years & you will see the following programs lost by as much or more than ND:

Bama
OSU (twice)
Clemson
LSU
Oklahoma (twice)
FSU
Oregon
Washington
MSU
Texas

I love the “prior to Bob Davie” people on here.
College football is a totally different thing now than it was then. Completely different...

 

[chaseball]

Look at the history over the last 15 years & you will see the following programs lost by as much or more than ND:

Bama
OSU (twice)
Clemson
LSU
Oklahoma (twice)
FSU
Oregon
Washington
MSU
Texas

I love the “prior to Bob Davie” people on here.
College football is a totally different thing now than it was then. Completely different...

Its not my style to make personal attacks during discussion but you are so clueless on this issue and so far gone that its not even worth investing time to debate the issue.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Gotta go to war with what we got!

 

[NDAFArly]

Why is this STILL a debate in the year 2019?

*facepalm*

Because ND consistently beats teams that out recruit them.
It’s more than just recruiting.

You are a big Weis guy by the way you post.
He was a failure & his classes were not good because they were top heavy, because like you he was a star gazer.
He would sign 4-5 great players, then completely drop off & miss out on complete positions. You can’t do that. You can’t chase 5 guys & ignore groups.
Weis has guys at 1-5 on his team that Kelly couldn’t get. But 6-85 Kelly is WAY better.
Weis recruited stars at a few positions, Kelly recruits teams.

A few programs will recruit in ways ND can’t. Get over it.
But others who out recruit ND are a mirage.
USC had the third ranked class a few years ago, but 7-8 of the high 4/5 Star players all played the same position (LB). What good is that? Their class was 3rd overall, but not near as complete or good as ND’s was.
Many of the teams who have higher rankings than ND don’t have better overall classes than ND. And that’s why ND beats them.

 

[Patriot82]

Anyone who says Notre Dame is plenty good playing with no 5 Star guys is making funnies.

 

[iwish]

Great thing about our country - freedom to root for whatever team you like. If Notre Dame isn't meeting your expectations, there are plenty of other schools to root for.

 

[Pennick4]

12-1.

 

[Buguit]

You can always count on Farley to look for numbers that make us look better than we are .... as if we are doing everything we can possibly do and this is as good as it gets and everyone should be happy

Oh .. and same for Penny

Just be happy to a make the playoffs once every 10 years ... it doesn't matter that we get blown out every time we show up .... just be happy we were there at all. This is a great year for ND.

The goal for these apologists/homers is obviously not a National Championship

PUKE

 

[IrishInOntario]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Two things can be true at the same time, and often are.

1. ND has not recruited enough difference makers to beat the very elite teams in these big time bowl games. I think that's evident to anybody with a set of eyes when you watch the obvious talent difference we've seen in recent games against Clemson, Ohio State and Alabama (2012, 2015, 2018).

2. Recruiting is not the only factor in success. It is certainly a significant factor. An argument can be made that it is the most important factor. Coaches often say that recruiting is the "lifeblood of the program"... That said, coaching, development, retention and, frankly, a little bit of luck are all part of the equation as well.

We've seen what an average coach can do with an Elite quarterback and top 10 recruiting classes. Look no further than Auburn. Gene Chizik coached there for a total of 3 years. He won a national championship in 2010, on the back of a stout defense and Cam Newton. Two years later, he was fired after going 19-19 in the following seasons.

The inability to coach well enough to continue his success post Cam Newton did Chizik in. He landed the composite #6 recruiting class in 2010 and the #5 recruiting class in 2011. He was bringing in a good deal of talent, but without a game changing quarterback, he just couldn't win at close to the same level as he did in his national championship season.

You need both in this era... Consistent quality classes bolstered by some elite players at select positions (QB, WR, OT, DE, CB) AND elite coaching to not only develop a championship team, but do it over-and-over again.

 

[NDSMC78]

Getting beat badly in the play off or bcs championship game equals a participation award. Not good enough for ND. Well maybe good enough for todays ND. Heads would roll at ND prior to bob Davie.

Utter nonsense. Being in a 4 team playoff is pretty damn good. Name one ND coach who was fired after a one loss season.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Utter nonsense. Being in a 4 team playoff is pretty damn good. Name one ND coach who was fired after a one loss season.

Agreed. I wish the fan base could adopt or inherit the opinion that 2018 was a successful season by any realistic metric, and start with that as a baseline to a discussion about how ND turns 12-1 to 13-1, then 14-0...

It's just my opinion, but complaining about where ND is at (among the top 10 teams this past season), in the top 5-7% of college football is overreaction and a failure to see the big picture... 22-4 over the past 2 seasons is a job well done, objectively speaking, especially after the disaster in 2016... The conversation becomes about how to sustain that base level for an extended period of time, while figuring out how to win 1 or 2 more games.

We can be disappointed about the result in the playoff game without forgetting about all the positive changes ND has made within the program over the past 24 months to put itself in position to even be included in the playoff and get murdered by a Clemson. I find it somewhat strange that SOME people can only focus on the negative. I guarantee Brian Kelly and the ND coaching staff are viewing 2017 and 2018 as foundation setting seasons, despite the railroading in the Cotton Bowl.

 

[PorkEatingCrusader]

This season gave me a lot of hope for what Kelly can accomplish at ND. I would agree that it can be viewed as a stepping stone to a NC winning season. Unfortunately I think recruiting needs to improve or it will be very difficult to beat the caliber of teams in the CFP this season.

 

[chaseball]

Agreed. I wish the fan base could adopt or inherit the opinion that 2018 was a successful season by any realistic metric, and start with that as a baseline to a discussion about how ND turns 12-1 to 13-1, then 14-0...

It's just my opinion, but complaining about where ND is at (among the top 10 teams this past season), in the top 5-7% of college football is overreaction and a failure to see the big picture... 22-4 over the past 2 seasons is a job well done, objectively speaking, especially after the disaster in 2016... The conversation becomes about how to sustain that base level for an extended period of time, while figuring out how to win 1 or 2 more games.

We can be disappointed about the result in the playoff game without forgetting about all the positive changes ND has made within the program over the past 24 months to put itself in position to even be included in the playoff and get murdered by a Clemson. I find it somewhat strange that SOME people can only focus on the negative. I guarantee Brian Kelly and the ND coaching staff are viewing 2017 and 2018 as foundation setting seasons, despite the railroading in the Cotton Bowl.

The issue is that the peripheral indicators (e.g. all the stuff under the hood if you will) didn't support the 12-1 record. There's a difference between being a 12-1 program and being 12-1 any given year. ND was 12-1 in 2018 but were dominated again against a legitimate playoff team/contender.

ND had a ton of good injury luck on defense (entire first team was healthy 99% of the season) and their schedule was one of the easiest among playoff teams. USC, Stanford, and FSU (best teams on the schedule) all had down years. This is good luck/fortune a program simply cannot rely on happening going forward. Moreover, ND was a massive underdog vs Clemson for all the reasons that we've been talking about for years: The lack of talent/the talent disparity.

I see little difference between where Brian Kelly's program was back in 2010-2012 and where it is now 2017-2019.

ND finished the 2018 season with a final F/P+ ranking of #7 and a 15th ranked recruiting class in 2019. ND had a #5 F/P+ ranking back in 2012 and a top 5 recruiting class that year as well. None of this indicates ND is anywhere closer to being a top 4 program now than they were in the past during BKs tenure.

For you, maybe making a playoff once or twice a decade is good enough. There are other fans out there that still want to win national titles and be a legitimate contender perennially (be one of the best programs in college football again) and not have to rely on tons of good luck during the season (like in 2012 and in 2018) to make the playoff and then be completely humiliated/overwhelmed by the other team when getting there.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Because ND consistently beats teams that out recruit them.
It’s more than just recruiting.

You are a big Weis guy by the way you post.
He was a failure & his classes were not good because they were top heavy, because like you he was a star gazer.
He would sign 4-5 great players, then completely drop off & miss out on complete positions. You can’t do that. You can’t chase 5 guys & ignore groups.
Weis has guys at 1-5 on his team that Kelly couldn’t get. But 6-85 Kelly is WAY better.
Weis recruited stars at a few positions, Kelly recruits teams.

A few programs will recruit in ways ND can’t. Get over it.
But others who out recruit ND are a mirage.
USC had the third ranked class a few years ago, but 7-8 of the high 4/5 Star players all played the same position (LB). What good is that? Their class was 3rd overall, but not near as complete or good as ND’s was.
Many of the teams who have higher rankings than ND don’t have better overall classes than ND. And that’s why ND beats them.

The 2 aren’t mutually exclusive though. You can still sign 3 Five Stars over a 2 year span and recruit the rest of your class the same.

 

[IrishInOntario]

The issue is that the peripheral indicators (e.g. all the stuff under the hood if you will) didn't support the 12-1 record. There's a difference between being a 12-1 program and being 12-1. ND was 12-1 but were dominated again against a legitimate playoff team/contender.

ND had a ton of good injury luck on defense (entire first team was healthy 99% of the season) and their schedule was one of the easiest among playoff teams. USC, Stanford, and FSU all had down years. This is good luck/fortune a program simply cannot rely on happening going forward. Moreover, ND was a massive underdog vs Clemson for all the reasons that we've been talking about for years: The lack of talent/the talent disparity.

I see little difference between where Brian Kelly's program was back in 2010-2012 and where it is now 2017-2019. ND finished the 2018 season with a final F/P+ ranking of #7 and a 15th ranked recruiting class in 2019. ND had a #5 F/P+ ranking back in 2012 and a top 5 recruiting class that year as well. None of this indicates ND is anywhere closer to being a top 4 program now than they were in the past during BKs tenure.

For you, maybe competing in a playoff once or twice a decade is good enough. There are other fans out there that still want to win national titles and be a legitimate contender perennially (be one of the best programs in college football again) and not have to rely on tons of good luck during the season (like in 2012 and in 2018) to make the playoff and then be completely humiliated/overwhelmed by the other team when getting there.

My point is that you can't use opinion to suggest that ND is going to regress back to a pre 2016 level, until they actually have. You're fine to predict it, but you're using some subjective analysis to support your opinion...

For example you talked about ND's defense being healthy this year, yet Shaun Crawford, the starting nickel back missed the entire season. Myron Tagavailoa-Amosa, the 3rd man in a 3 for 2 rotation at interior DL missed the entire season. Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, who ND hoped to rotate in a good deal at rover, missed the entire season. Drue Tranquill, the defensive captain, played through a bad ankle sprain and a broken hand that noticeably hampered him throughout the season. Khalid Kareem, who the coaches expected a monster breakout season out of at defensive end was hampered all season by an ankle that took his explosion away from him and had him hobbling on and off the field constantly. Daelin Hayes, the co-starter at the opposite defensive end position, suffered a shoulder injury that caused him to miss time and he wasn't the same the rest of the season after that... Even in the bowl game ND's best defensive player was injured in the 1st quarter, the first time he's missed in 2 years, in the game they could least afford an injury of that magnitude.

Is that a devastating injury list? No. I've seen worse. But if we can agree that Notre Dame is nowhere as deep as a team like Alabama, I think we can also agree that they overcame a good number of injuries relative to the talent and experience of their roster, especially when you consider two things.

1. This was a team built on defense.

2. The 3 season ending injuries (Crawford, MTA, Owusu-Koramoah) came at ND's 3 thinnest positions (Nickel, DT, Rover) and all were expected to be major contributors.

All of the above is to say that ND had its fare share of injuries on defense this year to deal with. Some long term and significant, and others that lingered throughout the season.

 

[IrishInOntario]

The 2 aren’t mutually exclusive though. You can still sign 3 Five Stars over a 2 year span and recruit the rest of your class the same.

Exactly what I'm calling for... A top 100 quarterback every other year, along with 2 top 100 OL every year, 1 top 100 DL every year, and a top 100 WR receiver every year, combined with the type of classes ND already gets, goes a long way.

I'm not asking for an Alabama class, I'm asking for...

5 guys from this group, at varied positions...

DE: Arik Gilbert (5 star)
RB: Chris Tyree (5 star)
WR: Jordon Johnson (top 100)
WR: Jalen McMilan (top 100)
ATH: AJ Henning (top 100)
OT: Bryn Tucker (top 100)
OT: Paris Johnson (top 100)
OT: Mitchell Mayes (top 100)
OG: Andrew Raym (top 100)
DE: Darrion Henry (top 100)
TE: Michael Mayer (top 100)
Rover: Enzo Jennings (top 100)

4 guys from this group at varied positions...

DE: Fadil Diggs (on the cusp of top 100)
LB: Kalel Mulings (on the cusp of top 100)
OT: Kevin Pyne (on the cusp of top 100)
QB: Drew Pyne (on the cusp of top 100)
OT: Andrew Gentry (on the cusp of top 100)
WR: John Humphris (on the cusp of top 100)
DE: Rylie Mills (on the cusp of top 100)
DE: Tyler Baron (on the cusp of top 100)

All of those guys have ND interest. Coming off a 12-1 season get me 9 guys out of those groups to set a foundation for a 20'ish man class, and build from there.

There are some unique prospects in this cycle as well. Guys that aren't ranked really high right now, but have a ton of big time offers rolling in and have huge measurable upside. Namely Arizona OT, Tosh Baker. A 6'7, 260lb kid who is going to enormous 3 years from now (keep in mind that he's a sophomore) and the German kid, Alex Ehrensberger, a 6'5, 235lb defensive end who is blowing up and who some feel is the next Bjoern Werner.

 

[chaseball]

The coaching staff did a fantastic job in season in 2018 i don't mean to take anything away from their success. By all standards they overachieved and that reflects very positively on the coaching job.

My issue is that ND isn't any closer to being a top 5 program today then they were throughout much of the Brian Kelly era over the last decade. The peripheral indicators don't line up with ND being one of the best programs in the country going forward. The recruiting classes are still way below sub par and when ND has undefeated seasons, the record is much better on the surface than the actual performance on the football field is. It's why ND is always a big underdog vs the best teams in the country despite having the same undefeated record as they do.

 

[chaseball]

I'm not asking for an Alabama class, I'm asking for...

I see this qualifier a lot

"i don't expect ND to have as good a class as alabama or OSU or FSU (now Texas A&M), or USC or Georgia" etc. etc. etc.

But what you are missing is that Alabama isn't blowing away the rest of the field in recruiting anymore. It's now 4 other programs who are recruiting on that level. The top programs are monopolizing the large majority of the talent.

You can't expect ND to be one of the best programs in the country and not recruit like them.

It's like expecting an NFL team be a playoff contender despite not having their first four draft picks every year. It might happen if that team is really fortunate but the odds are very unlikely.

Any argument that starts with "i dont expect ND to have as much talent as [enter list of programs here]" is an argument that is foundationally faulty.

You can't expect to have more success than these other programs when they have rosters with better players.

 

[chaseball]

Here are the latest F/P+ rankings (updated after the national title .. it's the final F/P+ ranking for the 2018 season):

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/fplus

Take not of the fact that despite ND being 12-1 .. the F/P+ ranking system has 6 other programs ahead of ND (several teams ahead of ND with multiple losses this season). If this was vegas odds, ND would be an underdog vs each of those teams ahead of them in a hypothetical match up. This is the data im referring to when talking about "peripheral indicators". There's a more comprehensive way of evaluating a football team than just their simple won-loss record.

Despite ND being 12-1 and being in the playoff .. they still werent one of the four best teams in the country this season. They were more like the 7th best team in the country based on the data. Then you match that with a subpar recruiting class and the future starts to not look so great. Then you see Brian Kelly's track record over the last 9 years where his program has been ranked in the mid teens for most of that time and it dampens that enthusiasm even more.

I guess that's where my thoughts are at with this program right now.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I see this qualifier a lot

"i don't expect ND to have as good a class as alabama or OSU or FSU (now Texas A&M), or USC or Georgia" etc. etc. etc.

But what you are missing is that Alabama isn't blowing away the rest of the field in recruiting anymore. It's now 4 other programs who are recruiting on that level. The top programs are monopolizing the large majority of the talent.

You can't expect ND to be one of the best programs in the country and not recruit like them.

It's like expecting an NFL team be a playoff contender despite not having four first round picks every year. It might happen if that team is really fortunate but the odds are very unlikely.

Any argument that starts with "i dont expect ND to have as much talent as [enter list of programs here]" is an argument that is foundationally faulty.

You can't expect to have more success than these other programs when they have rosters with better players.

ND has shown that it can recruit like those schools with a good recruiting staff and some sustained success. The reason I use Alabama as the standard is that no team has consistantly recruited like Alabama for a decade straight. That's the standard. The above teams you've mentioned, such as USC, FSU, and Texas A&M have had runs of great recruiting, but they've also recruited poorly at times. You can't take a picture of the moment and time and act as if that was true 5 years ago, or will be true 5 years from now... Those teams can go up and down just like Notre Dame can, based on success... And as we've seen in the case of USC and Texas A&M unbalanced recruiting and average coaching, can sink you just as easy as less than elite recruiting can.

Another thing to factor in... Many years Notre Dame would be right in that #10 range if they could take full 25 man classes. Class rankings are the product of talent + numbers. Because ND has less academic and crime related casualties than some other top schools, and because they offer 4 year scholarships, they carry more "dead weight" on their roster than other schools that sometimes "out recruit" Notre Dame on the basis on volume recruiting, when the quality is near identical. That's how Notre Dame dummies USC a couple years in a row, and beats LSU in back-to-back matchups. That's how they come one point away from beating Gerogia and beats Michigan. ND often retains players that those schools don't and that's not something reflected in recruiting rankings 2-3 years later... Take Georgia for example. Take Justin Fields, Luke Ford and the other top 100 kid that transferred out of last year's class... That shrinks the gap between ND and Georgia considerably in aggregate talent.

ND doesn't need miracles to compete with the majority of the top 10 programs... Land the following class in 2020 and you have a top 10 group....

QB: Drew Pyne
RB: Chris Tyree
WR: Jordan Johnson or Jalen McMillan
WR: AJ Henning
WR: Daniel Jackson
TE: Michael Mayer
TE: Kevin Bauman
OL: Mitchell Mayes
OL: Kevin Pyne
OL: Andrew Gentry
OL: Tosh Baker

DE: Braiden McGreggor or Tyler Baron
DE: Alex Ehrensbrger
DE: Fadil Diggs or Jalen Logan-Redding
DE / DT: Rylie Mills
NG: Aidan Keanaaiena
LB: Cody Simon
Rover: Enzo Jennings
CB: ???
CB: ???
S: ???

That's a top 10 class in reality. Now ND has to go out and grind their ass off on the recruiting trail.

 

[Kcndmis97]

Here are the latest F/P+ rankings (updated after the national title .. it's the final F/P+ ranking for the 2018 season):

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/fplus

Take not of the fact that despite ND being 12-1 .. the F/P+ ranking system has 6 other programs ahead of ND (several teams ahead of ND with multiple losses this season). If this was vegas odds, ND would be an underdog vs each of those teams ahead of them in a hypothetical match up. This is the data im referring to when talking about "peripheral indicators". There's a more comprehensive way of evaluating a football team than just their simple won-loss record.

Despite ND being 12-1 and being in the playoff .. they still werent one of the four best teams in the country this season. They were more like the 7th best team in the country based on the data. Then you match that with a subpar recruiting class and the future starts to not look so great. Then you see Brian Kelly's track record over the last 9 years where his program has been ranked in the mid teens for most of that time and it dampens that enthusiasm even more.

I guess that's where my thoughts are at with this program right now.

Like you said in an earlier post, it all comes down to each individual fan and their expectation of ND football in today’s landscape. There are some (like you) who wants and expects ND football to be like Bama and Clemson. There are others (like me) who realizes that college football is now a regional sport that is overwhelmingly dominated by the South (facts from the last 20 years back this up) so I do not expect ND to dominate like Bama and Clemson. Rather I just enjoy great seasons like we just had and hope for just 1 title in my lifetime. Neither fan perspective is right or wrong, just a different view.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Agreed. I wish the fan base could adopt or inherit the opinion that 2018 was a successful season by any realistic metric, and start with that as a baseline to a discussion about how ND turns 12-1 to 13-1, then 14-0...

It's just my opinion, but complaining about where ND is at (among the top 10 teams this past season), in the top 5-7% of college football is overreaction and a failure to see the big picture... 22-4 over the past 2 seasons is a job well done, objectively speaking, especially after the disaster in 2016... The conversation becomes about how to sustain that base level for an extended period of time, while figuring out how to win 1 or 2 more games.

We can be disappointed about the result in the playoff game without forgetting about all the positive changes ND has made within the program over the past 24 months to put itself in position to even be included in the playoff and get murdered by a Clemson. I find it somewhat strange that SOME people can only focus on the negative. I guarantee Brian Kelly and the ND coaching staff are viewing 2017 and 2018 as foundation setting seasons, despite the railroading in the Cotton Bowl.

Almost a decade for Kelly and zero major bowl wins, that's the problem. The embarrassing losses once they get there also show a coach that's outclassed. 3 points with a hole month, 3 f*cking points.

I'm not a big * ratings guy in recruiting either, but I do acknowledge it clearly makes a difference. I'm more of a "results only" guy. All that said, the #15 class in the country doesn't make me all tingly inside that the results in the big games are going to get any better.

 

[IrishFanSam81]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I dont have any inside info, nor am I a recruiting guru. All I can say from reading comments on this board is there are people on two opposite sides of the spectrum. I won't name names but some people expect ND to recruit like Bama or OSU (not gonna happen) and fire BK while others think we're fine as is (not quite).

With that being said I think the formula for ND winning is a simple one. Right now BK has the program in a good spot. I believe ND is close, especially defensively. I truly believe ND is a top 5 defensive football school right now. If Kelly could somehow get the type of offensive talent that the 2015 team had with this defense then I think ND can win a title. Will Fuller, Prosise, Chris Brown, etc. There was talent and speed on that team. Kelly had it before and can do it again.

I think ND can win big if these things happen:
1. Jurkovec to be a stud.
2. Lenzy, Austin, Keys. 2 of the 3 need to be difference makers.
3. Jafar to be big time and Kyren be a big contributor as a freshman. Tony Jones can't be the #2 option.
4. Bauer, Simon, or somebody else step up at LB and be a huge surprise.
5. Need a corner to replace Love.

All of that happens and ND can win 11 games next season. Regardless I think 9 wins is the floor. I like the way the program is headed. Just need some more difference makers. 2020 class has to get some of those guys to keep it going.

 

[chaseball]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I dont have any inside info, nor am I a recruiting guru. All I can say from reading comments on this board is there are people on two opposite sides of the spectrum. I won't name names but some people expect ND to recruit like Bama or OSU (not gonna happen) and fire BK while others think we're fine as is (not quite).

With that being said I think the formula for ND winning is a simple one. Right now BK has the program in a good spot. I believe ND is close, especially defensively. I truly believe ND is a top 5 defensive football school right now. If Kelly could somehow get the type of offensive talent that the 2015 team had with this defense then I think ND can win a title. Will Fuller, Prosise, Chris Brown, etc. There was talent and speed on that team. Kelly had it before and can do it again.

I think ND can win big if these things happen:
1. Jurkovec to be a stud.
2. Lenzy, Austin, Keys. 2 of the 3 need to be difference makers.
3. Jafar to be big time and Kyren be a big contributor as a freshman. Tony Jones can't be the #2 option.
4. Bauer, Simon, or somebody else step up at LB and be a huge surprise.
5. Need a corner to replace Love.

All of that happens and ND can win 11 games next season. Regardless I think 9 wins is the floor. I like the way the program is headed. Just need some more difference makers. 2020 class has to get some of those guys to keep it going.

More of the "if this prospect turns into one of the best players on NDs roster in the last decade, and this 3 or 4 star player emerges as a stud, and this player does XYZ" logic. It sounds really simple when put in those terms but essentially what you are saying is "i picked a 6 that one time, and a 42 that other time, and a 33 that other time, if only i could get all of those winning numbers drawn on the same lotto ticket!".

The reason ND doesn't have all of that talent on the same roster (concentrated on the same team in any given year) is exactly the reason why recruiting is so crucial.

You get all that talent on the same roster by successfully recruiting more talent than everybody else. That's how you get a national championship talented roster with Will Fullers, Tyler Eiferts, CJ Prosises, Theo Riddicks, Deshone Kizers, Manti Te'os, Julian Loves, Khalid Kareems, Mike Floyds, Quenton Nelsons ALL on the same team.

OSU, Alabama, and Georgia's recruiting department/staffs are insanely funded and have personnel of over 100+ people including the student body as volunteers who focus exclusively on recruiting and scouting (and these are just the programs that i've read about). It's no surprise why their respective programs are the envy of the league. They understand just how critical recruiting the best talent is. What is ND doing right now--besides making excuses--to match that level of commitment?

 

[TDIrish27]

247s composite 2019 class rankings currently has ZERO ND recruits ranked in the consensus top 100. This should change when they update and account for Kyle Hamilton's move into the top 100 on Rivals but at the moment there are currently ZERO top 100 players in NDs 2019 CLASS on 247s composite ranking (which is the better ranking system).

For comparison sake, Alabama has 10, Georgia has 8, Texas A&M has 7, and Oklahoma has 6, Notre Dame has 0.

Many of those other team's top 100 recruits are also 5 star/borderline 5 star and they are still in play with many more elite recruits right up to NSD (early february).

ND hasn't signed a 5 star since 2013 and have had a total of SEVEN top 100 composite recruits in the last three years combined.

ANYBODY WHO DOESNT SEE THESE NUMBERS AND IMMEDIATELY SEE A PROBLEM IS CLUELESS AND NAIVE.

12-1

 

[HarlemIrish]

Because ND consistently beats teams that out recruit them.
It’s more than just recruiting.

You are a big Weis guy by the way you post.
He was a failure & his classes were not good because they were top heavy, because like you he was a star gazer.
He would sign 4-5 great players, then completely drop off & miss out on complete positions. You can’t do that. You can’t chase 5 guys & ignore groups.
Weis has guys at 1-5 on his team that Kelly couldn’t get. But 6-85 Kelly is WAY better.
Weis recruited stars at a few positions, Kelly recruits teams.

A few programs will recruit in ways ND can’t. Get over it.
But others who out recruit ND are a mirage.
USC had the third ranked class a few years ago, but 7-8 of the high 4/5 Star players all played the same position (LB). What good is that? Their class was 3rd overall, but not near as complete or good as ND’s was.
Many of the teams who have higher rankings than ND don’t have better overall classes than ND. And that’s why ND beats them.

Excellent points but BK “teams” can’t beat the big boys. I would say BK needs some elite talent to get over the hump. I find it shocking that we can’t get a top 5 star to play one of the most prestigious positions in all of sports. QB.

 

[Shulkswagen]

Recruiting is not what it was in the Holtz era but it’s better than it’s been in a long time. Something is working, ND is producing NFL talent again and not just NFL special teamers, but starters and even all-pros.

Does anyone know how many of the Too 100 we offered? We will never compete for some of these players - some of them are not ND kids and some of them are not coming to Northern Indiana.

 

[dagimpper1]

Or we can just settle for embarrassing bowl loss's and 8-4 seasons. Most ND fans signed on to the "we play for championships" model. We haven't changed maybe ND has but, we have not.

 

[NDSMC78]

Almost a decade for Kelly and zero major bowl wins, that's the problem. The embarrassing losses once they get there also show a coach that's outclassed. 3 points with a hole month, 3 f*cking points.

I'm not a big * ratings guy in recruiting either, but I do acknowledge it clearly makes a difference. I'm more of a "results only" guy. All that said, the #15 class in the country doesn't make me all tingly inside that the results in the big games are going to get any better.

Beating that old dead horse.

 

[echowaker]

More of the "if this prospect turns into one of the best players on NDs roster in the last decade, and this 3 or 4 star player emerges as a stud, and this player does XYZ" logic. It sounds really simple when put in those terms but essentially what you are saying is "i picked a 6 that one time, and a 42 that other time, and a 33 that other time, if only i could get all of those winning numbers drawn on the same lotto ticket!".

The reason ND doesn't have all of that talent on the same roster (concentrated on the same team in any given year) is exactly the reason why recruiting is so crucial.

You get all that talent on the same roster by successfully recruiting more talent than everybody else. That's how you get a national championship talented roster with Will Fullers, Tyler Eiferts, CJ Prosises, Theo Riddicks, Deshone Kizers, Manti Te'os, Julian Loves, Khalid Kareems, Mike Floyds, Quenton Nelsons ALL on the same team.

OSU, Alabama, and Georgia's recruiting department/staffs are insanely funded and have personnel of over 100+ people including the student body as volunteers who focus exclusively on recruiting and scouting (and these are just the programs that i've read about). It's no surprise why their respective programs are the envy of the league. They understand just how critical recruiting the best talent is. What is ND doing right now--besides making excuses--to match that level of commitment?

this just in, horse still dead........

 

[echowaker]

Excellent points but BK “teams” can’t beat the big boys. I would say BK needs some elite talent to get over the hump. I find it shocking that we can’t get a top 5 star to play one of the most prestigious positions in all of sports. QB.

few if any of those kids want to attend ND. they want the quickest path to the NFL with the lest amount of resistance academically. not sure why many here simply don't recognize that. ND is not that path.